rework materials from the ground up

[Nnystyxx]

I like the ideas recently proposed: chemicals doing something new and interesting rather than "smack a man he die", and materials actually having unique and interesting effects. Material science was, before it was gutted, essentially slightly different versions of the same things and uqill armor all the time farty party. Actual benefits and drawbacks and some situational use to the various materials could really afford some interesting ways to shake up the game formula.

Also different materials/minerals might be an excuse to make mining more fun.

[Frank_Stein]

I don't think every chem needs an effect. Seems like a lot of effort and as neat and as silly as dunking a spear into coffee or cheese and having do something is, it's gonna lead to a lot of bloat

[Nnystyxx]

Maybe only the dispenser elements/some one-step combinations should do something? That would limit it a fair bit.

[Huff H Law]

Make it possible to use welding tools on glass shards to create glass panels, it's a minor thing yes but it completely ruins getting off the diner z-level without mining access since you can't repair it yourself.

[Keelin]

I'm just gonna say: We tried the "every chem does something to materials".
It doesn't work. There's to many chems. It's impossible to keep all of that stuff updated and even more impossible to give all chems different effects when applied to materials.

[Erik]

Please change the entire system so that instead having to use the quite-so-clunky workbench we can create molds, and fill those molds with molten goo of things we smelt.

[Nnystyxx]

THE ARC SMELTER

(and the general forge process)

Okay, so. I have an idea for how we can change the general process of using the arc smelter to both simplify making certain objects, and relegate the complex shit to the workbench system. Basically, the process of making stuff with the arc smelter would be in a few parts: most importantly, melting in the main chamber, and pouring into molds.

When you put materials in the arc smelter and fire it up, they will melt down together and pour into a secondary holding tank. They do not automatically melt as soon as they are added, allowing you to put everything together into one alloy with mixed properties. It also allows you to load corpses and melt them into meat slurry.

Now, once the molten metal has gone to the secondary holding tank, you have a few options. At this juncture, you can either void the container and start over, add reagents to alter its properties (in theory), or move on to the casting process. Let's assume you do the latter.

Underneath some funnels 'n' shit from the holding tank is a casting machine. At roundstart, it has a number of basic molds in it, ranging from various tools, to material things like sheets. (There is no specific limit on what can be cast into what, but a molitz crowbar would be pretty useless.) Molds are made from a refractory material that can be ordered from QM or mined. You can interact with the machine to see what molds it has, and select which one is active. By engaging the funnel from the holding tank to the casting machine, a certain volume/all? of the molten metal will pour into the cast, set for several moments, and then cool, allowing you to pop the fresh new item out with your bare hands. Or preferably gloves. So you don't burn your dumb hands off.

Replacing the material combobulator would be a mold scanner; essentially, it would take any given item you hit it with (mugs, crowbars, space things, saxophones) and 3D-print a mold out of refractory material that it starts with/you load in later. That mold can then be added to the caster so you can make, I don't know, golden butt statues.

And that's my current ideal vision of the arc smelting process. It lets you make simple, fun and potentially useful stuff, but certain items could be blacklisted from being scanned so you're forced to use the actual crafting/workbench system for the more complex stuff.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, we already have a scanner which does nothing so use it for the mold scanner printer thing ok bye.

[Erik]

THE ARC SMELTER

(and the general forge process)

Okay, so. I have an idea for how we can change the general process of using the arc smelter to both simplify making certain objects, and relegate the complex shit to the workbench system. Basically, the process of making stuff with the arc smelter would be in a few parts: most importantly, melting in the main chamber, and pouring into molds.

When you put materials in the arc smelter and fire it up, they will melt down together and pour into a secondary holding tank. They do not automatically melt as soon as they are added, allowing you to put everything together into one alloy with mixed properties. It also allows you to load corpses and melt them into meat slurry.

Now, once the molten metal has gone to the secondary holding tank, you have a few options. At this juncture, you can either void the container and start over, add reagents to alter its properties (in theory), or move on to the casting process. Let's assume you do the latter.

Underneath some funnels 'n' shit from the holding tank is a casting machine. At roundstart, it has a number of basic molds in it, ranging from various tools, to material things like sheets. (There is no specific limit on what can be cast into what, but a molitz crowbar would be pretty useless.) Molds are made from a refractory material that can be ordered from QM or mined. You can interact with the machine to see what molds it has, and select which one is active. By engaging the funnel from the holding tank to the casting machine, a certain volume/all? of the molten metal will pour into the cast, set for several moments, and then cool, allowing you to pop the fresh new item out with your bare hands. Or preferably gloves. So you don't burn your dumb hands off.

Replacing the material combobulator would be a mold scanner; essentially, it would take any given item you hit it with (mugs, crowbars, space things, saxophones) and 3D-print a mold out of refractory material that it starts with/you load in later. That mold can then be added to the caster so you can make, I don't know, golden butt statues.

And that's my current ideal vision of the arc smelting process. It lets you make simple, fun and potentially useful stuff, but certain items could be blacklisted from being scanned so you're forced to use the actual crafting/workbench system for the more complex stuff.

TL;DR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-TwpDs3vE in SS13 please.

[Nnystyxx]

<Erik> human molds.
<Sartorius> I want to make gloves and boots and mops
<Sartorius> And butt fabric dummies
<HeadSurgeon> are dummies
<Nnystyxx> If you smash someone into the mold scanner it should make a mold of them
<Nnystyxx> so if you want gold statues of yourself
<Nnystyxx> you need someone to fucking body you into the scanner
<Erik> emag the mold maker.
<Erik> stuff a clown in
<HeadSurgeon> three points: welding tool mold and then skin + prepare the mise en place
<Sartorius> Why not just you know lie down on it
* hukhukhuk has quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds)
<Nnystyxx> well yes that would make sense too
<Sartorius> Or place your ass on the scanner to make x material butt

[Frank_Stein]

Make it possible to use welding tools on glass shards to create glass panels, it's a minor thing yes but it completely ruins getting off the diner z-level without mining access since you can't repair it yourself.

Welding ores could be like ghetto smelting in that in melts the material into a hot puddle on the floor that cools into a sheet, faster if you dump water on it.

[Superlagg]

If put space fungus in the mold scanner it explodes.

[Noah Buttes]

I'm just gonna say: We tried the "every chem does something to materials".
It doesn't work. There's to many chems. It's impossible to keep all of that stuff updated and even more impossible to give all chems different effects when applied to materials.

Was the main difficulty in actually coding the effects or in coming up with them?

[BBEG]

It essentially hijacks material science. Nobody is going to give two shits about the hardness of an item if you can make a sarin infused shard. Note during that time you could also make .22s with the material system, so you'd have people going around with kuru bullets. Go figure.

I'll concede that reagent infused bullets were fucking stupid and basically turned silenced pistols into tranquilizer rifles on steroids. Never bring them back, ever.

Chemistry is a good backbone, but it's literally in everything. It's not that much a stretch to request something that isn't chemistry based. The additive barrel as it stood during that period WAS material science, which was really sad, as it was meant for miners. Add 1 and 1 there and you see the big issue.

Material science definitely shouldn't be limited to just chemistry. Ideally, it will eventually grow to become backbone worthy itself.

However, I think it'd be a monumental effort to make a completely new system from scratch. Like a young plant, the materials system needs to grow around a protective wire framework so that it has proper support and doesn't turn into a tangled mass of vines.

The additive barrel could be introduced back, but I would only like to see it in some form which doesn't infuse the chemical, but rather chemically treats the properties, raising and lowering them depending on the chemical. And it would be very specific chemicals that do it, acids and such. Akin to the relationship between medical and chemistry, in which specific chemicals are required for medical, as would specific chemicals would be required for ore processing. This would make chemistry a side thing rather than a requirement

I believe this is the direction that the system was beginning to head in before it was removed. If I remember correctly, infused materials adding chemicals directly to the bloodstream was only a placeholder before individual effects could be worked out. I know for a fact that some chemicals did not get added to the bloodstream and instead directly impacted the stats of the material.

For instance, Triple Meth infused armor, contrary to what you might assume, didn't give you a never-ending high. Instead, it maxed out your bullet resistance but dropped your melee resistance to zero. Or vice versa. I don't quite remember.

I think that all chemicals should have some sort of effect when added to materials, but there needs to be a great variety rather than just one or two outliers in a sea of reagent injection.

I think we'd need a huge brainstorming session to come up with a unique effect for every possible additive, but I'm sure if a properly extensible framework were set up, it'd be relatively easy to add said effects.

to be honest i think the material system should work a bit like chemistry in that certain alloy combinations give you different properties and such and i do think that there should be more fantastic metals with weird properties and maybe some have some hidden alloy combinations

[Nnystyxx]

I agree with BBEG, maybe rather than slathering chem onto metallurgy awkwardly it could encourage more rare material funky alloy stuff.

[Keelin]

I'm just gonna say: We tried the "every chem does something to materials".
It doesn't work. There's to many chems. It's impossible to keep all of that stuff updated and even more impossible to give all chems different effects when applied to materials.

Was the main difficulty in actually coding the effects or in coming up with them?

There's far more chems than theres attributes on materials. There's only so many things you can do.
That aside, it became a massive pain to keep all the different effects on the chems updated and balanced.
If this is brought back it would have to be limited to some chems but not all.

As for the "more like chem" stuff: I did already add ways to create material "recipes" of any kind. It just isn't really used much yet.

I'm gonna wait a few more days for ideas and responses and then i'll probably get started