Surgery thread

[ZeWaka]

One thing I don't get is why don't we just use a menu prompt for surgery
Cut a person open and then get a list of whats inside them

gross :S

[aft2001]

gross :S

Says the coder for a game where you can puke on someone, fart on their face, take all their clothes, chop up their body, gib them, and bathe in the blood.

[ZeWaka]

gross :S

Says the coder for a game where you can puke on someone, fart on their face, take all their clothes, chop up their body, gib them, and bathe in the blood.

No. Gross like "fuck popup menus and the cancer they are on in intuitive and seamless game design"

[Frank_Stein]

gross :S

Says the coder for a game where you can puke on someone, fart on their face, take all their clothes, chop up their body, gib them, and bathe in the blood.

No. Gross like "fuck popup menus and the cancer they are on in intuitive and seamless game design"

How is it less intuitive then the current implementation of eye surgery?

Obviously a list isn't ideal, but plenty of other things already use lists that are less friendly (Cameras are a pretty big glaring example of list bloat) and until a better system exists I think it works better than the clumsy work you have to do droping one tool, picking up another, switching intents, and keeping forceps in your oft hand

[Mageziya]

The reason that popups wouldn't work with organ surgery is because you sorta have a time limit in terms of your patient bleeding out. Also doesn't help that the changes to blood have made surgery even more difficult and time sensitive.

[Cirrial]

I have to say I do like the current system, as while it might not be the most intuitive to learn it allows for very speedy action when you understand it. Well, with the notable exception of how fiddly eye surgery is. Not sure of any ways around it, however.

The only things I can think of to address the problem are themselves needlessly fiddly like adding more areas to the hit intent thing, as if it isn't already mostly useless outside of surgery as it is.

Perhaps something of a prompt after use of a tool which says what tool to use next for a surgical path? "You could use the saw to begin heart removal, or use the scalpel to begin removing the pancreas" etc.

I dunno, there's at least two intents not being used for torso surgery yet. Also, it'd probably involve a massive refactoring but perhaps surgical tools could be clicked to cycle through surgical intent-- ok no that idea is bad I'm leaving it in the post but adding another intent system is worse than a pop-up menu

[babayetu83]

gross :S

Says the coder for a game where you can puke on someone, fart on their face, take all their clothes, chop up their body, gib them, and bathe in the blood.

No. Gross like "fuck popup menus and the cancer they are on in intuitive and seamless game design"

popup menus are great when you've got a bunch of different options 

i cant believe whoever put in eye surgery thought it was a good idea to make it so you have to use the tool in the same hand over a popup menu, now THAT's unintuitive

[Frank_Stein]

Tbh, my ideal system would be one in which you can do everything needed within a detailed menu

Prep tools on a tray to have them quickly available to pick up and put down, have a detailed graphic of human body with all the areas you could work on.

So you'd just lay out your tools on a tray, pick which ones you wanted for each hand, clicked the areas you wanted on the detailed body, and lay them back down on the tray when you needed to.

A separate tray would handle things like removed or transplanted organs and what not.

I'll make a mock up later when I have the chance

[Grek]

NOTE: In this revised surgery system surgery is not instant. Each step has a progress bar like building walls does. Moving interrupts you. Being interrupted for any reason results in an error, generally resulting in lots of brute damage and bleeding for the patient.

0. The patient is not in surgery. Scalpel chest for 1, Saw chest for 20, Scalpel head for 22, Saw head for 23, Saw limb for 28.
1. You make a chest incision! Scalpel for 2, Saw for 3, Suture for 0. Examine patient to see what organs are present.
2. You extend the cut into an abdominal incision! Scalpel for 4, Saw for 5, Hemostat for 6, Suture for 10.
3. You open rib cage! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Scalpel for 7, Saw for 8, Hemostat for 9, Staple Gun for 10.
4. Intestine surgery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hands to insert/remove objects, Scalpel for 14, Suture for 10.
5. Kidney surgery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hand used determines kidney interacted with. Hands for objects, Scalpel for 15, Suture for 10.
6. Stomach surgery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hands to insert/remove objects, Scalpel for 16, Suture for 10.
7. Liver surgery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hands to insert/remove objects, Scalpel for 17, Suture for 10.
8. Lung sugery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hand used determines lung interacted with. Hands for objects, Scalpel for 18, Suture for 10.
9. Heart surgery! If organ absent, move up 10 steps. Hands to insert/remove objects, Scalpel for 19, Suture for 10.
10. You start to close the patient back up. Suture for 0.
11. You clamp off the bleeders! Good work. Patient stops bleeding. Suture for 10.
12. You staple the ribs back into place. Hemostat for 11, Suture for 13.
13. You move on to another organ. Scalpel for 2, Saw for 3, Suture for 10.
14. You remove the intestine. Intestine for 4, Hemostat for 11, Suture for 13.
15. You remove a kidney! Kidney for 5, Hemostat for 11, Suture for 13.
16. You remove the stomach! Stomach for 6, Hemostat for 11, Suture for 13.
17. You remove the liver! Liver for 7, Staple for 12.
18. You remove a lung! Lung for 8, Staple for 12.
19. You remove the heart! Heart for 9, Staple for 12.
20. You saw their butt right off. Oh god. Butt for 21, Suture for 10.
21. You replace the patient's butt. Whew. Saw for 20, Suture for 10.
22. You make a facial incision. Spoon for 24, with eye depending on handedness, or Saw for 30.
23. You saw open the skull! Examine patient to see skull contents. Hands to add/remove objects, Scalpel for 26, Staple for 27.
24. You remove an eye. Eye for 25, Hemostat for 11.
25. You replace an eye. Hemostat for 11.
26. You remove the brain. The patient is dead. Brain for 23.
27. You staple the skull shut. Hemostat for 11.
28. You saw the limb clean off! Welp. Limb for 29, Hemostat for 11.
29. You attach a limb. Saw for 28, Hemostat for 11.
30. You remove the entire head. The patient is dead. Head for 31. On the severed head itself, Scalpel for 32, Scissors for 33.
31. You attach a new head. Hemostat for 11.
32. You remove the skin from the face. Congratulations, it's a skull.
33. You shave the severed head for some reason. You collect the hair.

[Frank_Stein]

I'll make a mock up later when I have the chance

So here is the surgery menu. 

• The right is the list of tools. Click the top to add items in hand to that list, and click the names of items to add them to your hand. Clicking one item while currently holding one swaps the two.
  
• The left is the list of items a part of the surgery. Click the top to add items to the list, and the names of items to add them in your hand. Items removed through surgery are automatically added to the list
  
• The top is a quick reference to the health of the patient. This would always update on surgery tables with health monitors or if you're wearing prodocs, otherwise it would display the information from the last time the patient was scanned with a hand held health scanner
  
• In the center is the detailed surgery doll. Each section is individually clickable with whatever item is in hand. (I.E. if you have a scalpel in your active hand and click the left eye on the doll, you scalpel the patients left eye). The sections change color depending on what stage of surgery the section is in. The example patient has had their left eye removed, and an incision has been made on their heart region
  

Note: I think this menu would work best in conjunction with traditional surgery methods, with the traditional kind being more for impromptu locations outside medbay. I also didn't add everything here, I just wanted to get the idea across.

[Cirrial]

Holy damn, Grek. That's not a terrible idea. A little clunky to learn but once you have it down you can blaze through this sort of stuff. Although I'm not entirely 100% on some of it -- adding a brain at step 26 looks like it results in removing an eye? It might need some "debugging" of the logic.

[aft2001]

I think that if this complexity were added, then surgery should be less lethal for each incision and cut you make. Brute damage and bleeding is lowered except if you, ya know, cut out the heart. Without hemostats the patient would likely bleed out, though, making it much more vital for surgery. Also, surgery tables and rooms would have to be reworked. To use Frank_Stein's current GUI idea, the operating table should be surrounded by two tables that will auto-detect what's on it and will display all surgical tools/items on the GUI. The operating table would also need a reskin for cosmetics with a small red panel on it that displays patient health.

And I am in full support of combining Grek's and Frank's idea. Though, with Frank's, I think that each action should have a pop-up menu. Like, clicking on a certain part of the body will bring up a small list of options, and clicking on said option with the right tools will perform it. Wrong tools and you bork the patient. Also a nice little "beep, beep, beep" for heart monitoring could be neat, I guess.

[Maegor]

I would not like to have a GUI, i prefer to have it be different intentions and tools as it is more immersive and intuitive,

[Mordent]

I'm with the "no GUI" bunch.

a) It lowers immersion.
b) It adds a further delay in performing surgery.
c) It makes ghetto surgery less do-able (by virtue of having more requirements).
d) It would take way more work to implement, and be less flexible to change.
e) The heck is wrong with the current way? Just read the descriptions as you go. I don't doctor much anymore, and I haven't killed a patient via surgery for a good while.

Conversely, I'm hugely for grek's suggested changes (or similar).

[BBEG]

I just hope we will be able to make abominations like this:

And this: