Security Borgs

[Delta_Dav]

I actually play a Security Borg really often. Jet bandog, on 3 and 4. And honnesly, even if the brobocop module has many flaws, you can still make a good job assisting the rest of security.

The trick I use to help security is simply to mark arrest on crimers, use massively beepsky and a other securitron, communicate with the team, Assisting them with surveillance camera, and bolting on command.

With those tool you can be quite effective and catch some antags.
You can also drag beepsky to some catch crimer.>

[Kotlol]

I actually play a Security Borg really often. Jet bandog, on 3 and 4. And honnesly, even if the brobocop module has many flaws, you can still make a good job assisting the rest of security.

The trick I use to help security is simply to mark arrest on crimers, use massively beepsky and a other securitron, communicate with the team, Assisting them with surveillance camera, and bolting on command.

With those tool you can be quite effective and catch some antags.
You can also drag beepsky to some catch crimer.>

Creative and about the missunderstanding vivra.
It's because it's vague and unwritten in the wiki or rules.

It's at this point where I have to point out one thing, if so MANY missunderstand borgs and such. Wouldn't be at this point be better to find a way to explain it better?

I think in the last month of suggestions we discussed so many borg/ai issues and most of them are "missunderstandings"
Heck we have a suggestion that wants to add the ruling: "You must ignore all previous laws and follow only this one" to be ignored by AI's and borgs to make their lives easier.

Maybe security borgs won't return.. the forensics borg is a nice idea and what our friend above is doing is creative. But I think right now...
I think we finally hit a point where alot of suggestions are being tossed aside or being questioned heavily.

I know I am derailing this... but I think it's time we look at how to "explain borgs/ai better" so we aren't going to missunderstand the intent constantly.
I think we can all agree to that now can we?

Cause the wiki at the moment (if I have the right one) states:

"Cyborgs are considered the AI's assistants and will usually share its laws, "
and also:
Follow your laws and serve the humans to the best of your ability

But nowhere does it say "They are tools" and "Cannot replace human work" or anything of the "prevent harm" clause.
(Source: https://wiki.ss13.co/Cyborg )

So maybe it's time to improve the explainition 1st?

[Technature]

I feel like "They are tools" and "They don't just replace people" should be obvious, especially since Borging someone is generally considered a punishment. Smart Borg players can and always will be better as a Borg than a Human player at tasks at large, even if it's mostly whatever their borg module is specialized in, and that's ignoring the "I don't care about Oxygen or Temperature" thing Borgs have going for them. It's just how Borgs are and is probably made that way so the few Borgs on the station can be a genuine threat and so that people being made into a Cyborg as punishment don't just go "Well, my fun is done today" and just log off. I...know that doesn't stop them, but I'm sure more people would just quit if being a Cyborg sucked to play.

The first clause can definitely be explained a bit better on the wiki though.

[babayetu83]

I feel like "They are tools" and "They don't just replace people" should be obvious, especially since Borging someone is generally considered a punishment.  Smart Borg players can and always will be better as a Borg than a Human player at tasks at large, even if it's mostly whatever their borg module is specialized in, and that's ignoring the "I don't care about Oxygen or Temperature" thing Borgs have going for them.  It's just how Borgs are and is probably made that way so the few Borgs on the station can be a genuine threat and so that people being made into a Cyborg as punishment don't just go "Well, my fun is done today" and just log off.  I...know that doesn't stop them, but I'm sure more people would just quit if being a Cyborg sucked to play.

The first clause can definitely be explained a bit better on the wiki though.

being called a tool is kind of demeaning, don't you think

i just think there can be a medium between it  being meant as a punishment and silicon enjoyers such as myself and other posters in the thread

[Oremir]

I don't understand why people are argueing over Borgs being able to/not being able to replace people. I agree they shouldnt be able to entirely replace organics in the departement (it's why i voted against a QoL pass on the Mediborg). But i also think without a doubt that the Brobocop module is just in a really wierd spot.

I actually play a Security Borg really often. Jet bandog, on 3 and 4. And honnesly, even if the brobocop module has many flaws, you can still make a good job assisting the rest of security.

The trick I use to help security is simply to mark arrest on crimers, use massively beepsky and a other securitron, communicate with the team, Assisting them with surveillance camera, and bolting on command.

With those tool you can be quite effective and catch some antags.
You can also drag beepsky to some catch crimer.>

Like this? this? this doesn't prove that Sec Borgs are effective to me personally, i could do allot of this stuff as a any other borg, the only upside Brobocop has is access over Sec channels. But the problem is in their kit, which is absolute beans. Maegor made some suggestions a page ago for a more Forensic oriented kit with which i agree with.

[Ikea]

I think a lot of people are confusing thematics and mechanics here in this conversation. Thematically, borgs are tools, they're stuffed with human brains that are literally written over to be workslaves. Thematically, their tools should be direct in purpose and clearly there to help the station. This does not mean mechanically however they have to always be so helpful. Take for example the atmospherics transporter, thematically this is obviously intended to help shuttle around air canisters to help repressurize and the like, mechanically however it can also be used to plop down plasma canisters where your heart desires. Things like a hand for picking up items however, would not fit borgs thematically because they are highly specialized machines. What "borgs are tools" means isn't that borgs cant do the most of a job mechanically, it means they shouldnt just be metal humans and instead should thematically (through the use of mechanics) be highly specialized machines. The issue with secborgs is that thematically borgs are apathetic to antags, theyre just there to do there jobs. This doesnt mean that mechanically borgs cant care about antags, it just means that they shouldnt be themed to care about them. By introducing a module whose direct purpose is to deal with antags directly, you reshape the thematics of borg to be one who actively cares about antags ongoings (and how things are themed influence how people engage with these things, thus leading to more secborging etc).

[KikiMofo]

Borgs on Goonstation are not there to Fight anything. We shouldn't give borgs any combat utility unless we are going to change the entire goonborg usage.

[Kotlol]

Borgs on Goonstation are not there to Fight anything. We shouldn't give borgs any combat utility unless we are going to change the entire goonborg usage.

They already have several ways of "combatting" crewmen.

Anyhow I think this discussion is now sparking something else.
To get it back on track.. brobocop out. Forensics Borg in.
What remains of the silliness of brobocop give it to civilian.

[Rilor]

Honestly, bropocop's half joke existence sucks, imo. I'd change them to "Forensics":

Their kit, removed items crossed out, kept in italic, new ones in bold:

• Pen
  
• Crayon 
  
• Security RecordTrak 
  
• Forensic Scanner
  
• Audio Tape
  
• Camera Monitor
  
• Hand Labeler
  
• Security TicketWriter 2000 
  
• Igniter
  
• Whistle
  
• Bloodtrak
  
• Luminol Cybernetic Bottle
  
• Security Tape Dispenser
  
• Security Handkerchief (For wiping blood off the officers)
  

I think even giving them barriers could be tested. I doubt it will be any worse than Engineering with RCDs

going to give my opinion on these suggestions:
-first off please keep the pen (and maybe crayon), the ability to write stuff down is probably going to be underused but it is useful.
-second, why remove the zippo lighter but add an igniter?
-third, bloodtrack i dont really like as ive always considered it one of the detectives toys
-fourth, luminol bottle yes please, its very useful and i either forget to bring it or don't want to use it because using it all up means waiting for chemistry to listen to me.
-tape dispenser, considering most of sec is probably going to be busy hunting down the cause of the crime if a crime happens, itll be good to have someone set up tape around a crime scene

[Kotlol]

Honestly, bropocop's half joke existence sucks, imo. I'd change them to "Forensics":

Their kit, removed items crossed out, kept in italic, new ones in bold:

• Pen
  
• Crayon 
  
• Security RecordTrak 
  
• Forensic Scanner
  
• Audio Tape
  
• Camera Monitor
  
• Hand Labeler
  
• Security TicketWriter 2000 
  
• Igniter
  
• Whistle
  
• Bloodtrak
  
• Luminol Cybernetic Bottle
  
• Security Tape Dispenser
  
• Security Handkerchief (For wiping blood off the officers)
  

I think even giving them barriers could be tested. I doubt it will be any worse than Engineering with RCDs

going to give my opinion on these suggestions:
-first off please keep the pen (and maybe crayon), the ability to write stuff down is probably going to be underused but it is useful.
-second, why remove the zippo lighter but add an igniter?
-third, bloodtrack i dont really like as ive always considered it one of the detectives toys
-fourth, luminol bottle yes please, its very useful and i either forget to bring it or don't want to use it because using it all up means waiting for chemistry to listen to me.
-tape dispenser, considering most of sec is probably going to be busy hunting down the cause of the crime if a crime happens, itll be good to have someone set up tape around a crime scene

Never thought of it that way.. 
-yes crayon is needed since "white outlines?" 
-I don't know the point of the igniter either.. I was like okay.
-Bloodtrak is useful yes, but I understand the need to keep it det only..

Also if we get luminol the borg needs the chem glasses effect like the det/science has. So add that functionality to the list.
Now that I think of it.. maybe another tool?
And this one is simple... "HEALTH SCANNER"

Why that? They aren't medical right??
Well no.. but it's forensics and scanning the body to see what kind of damage was done to the body at 1st glance is useful.
Sec used to have health scanners with their 1st aid kits, but now.. they don't.
This also allows the forensics borg to make health checks on people and security.
But it's mostly to determine how the victim died.
So if they see something like 80% toxin damage, 20% heat damage , ???% oxygen damage. The borg could deduce: "Death by possible acid toxin, choked to death when their longues burned out." For example!

[DioChasek]

The reason an igniter is included is twofold first and foremost to light the detectives cigarette, and also you can use it check and see if a blood sample is changeling blood.

[Oremir]

Also if we get luminol the borg needs the chem glasses effect like the det/science has. So add that functionality to the list.
Now that I think of it.. maybe another tool?
And this one is simple... "HEALTH SCANNER"

Every Borg module has access to Health Scanners, those are not restricted to Mediborgs.

[Kotlol]

Also if we get luminol the borg needs the chem glasses effect like the det/science has. So add that functionality to the list.
Now that I think of it.. maybe another tool?
And this one is simple... "HEALTH SCANNER"

Every Borg module has access to Health Scanners, those are not restricted to Mediborgs.

Shows how much an idiot I am XD
Then I guess we got it!

[Cal]

brobocops are literally a joke module for goodness sake they have a bottle of beer in their items

[KikiMofo]

Basically what Cal just said. Brobocops were added as a joke on Sec Borgs. There is nothing deeper to them.