Security Borgs

[BingusGatherer]

In the current system, borgs have no real way of fighting nukies, changelings, vampires, or the crew in the event of a Law change due to having to use limited tools. while I'm aware of the security borgs of days past and the unspeakable abuse of the module, I was thinking, what if they come into play again. Now obviously they would be heavily restricted, possibly only appearing in the HoS's locker or the Armory, and in very limited numbers, so the AI can make a borg kill-squad. this idea is kinda dumb I'm going to be honest, but as it goes now, upgrading a borg to give them max armor and lots of upgrades to fight a antag, does not do much as they usually only have their Omni-tool, while the antag usually has a flash or gun of sorts. again kind of a dumb idea, but i just was wondering as it could spicy up gameplay a tad.

[Kotlol]

We recently had a discussion in another thread how borgs need some changes (Medical borg QoL)
While the suggestion it self was denied.. the topic did come up how some borg modules are just... 10 times better then others.
And how borgs can't do certain jobs at all or assist them.

One that came up was the Brobocop one. Who mostly ends up being... Not usefull for security, not funny as a clown and mostly ends up being a food and drink dispenser for the crew... wich highjacks Bartender's and chef's job as it's instant food without any problems. (Also food processors are a spacebux only item)

So the suggestion came that brobocop needs to be removed and it's kit divided to different modules, while others get removed. (Like the food dispenser)

We came up with the following for security:
-Zipties
-Allow some sort of flashing, only flashing, maybe batoning, but flashing for now.
-No live rounds or ways of killing people (to avoid grief of the previous one)

I also like to add things like:
-Has an alert like beepsky if they arrest someone

Essentially put... Borgs need alot of new things.. Since the 2 best borgs are Engineer borg and Mediborg. Mining borg is good too, but any of the others are just mediocore or bad.

[BingusGatherer]

I was going to mention Brobocops and how useless they are, mainly only ever being used
by new players who wanted to try being a borg on classic, and never getting used on the RP servers

that and the chemistry borg module need a rework, as neither of those two are chosen often.
maybe not like the old sec borgs, but a general revamp would be appreciated.
I think the civilian module is fine though, it's just not many want to be a helper to the chef, janitor, or botanists.

[DioChasek]

One that came up was the Brobocop one. Who mostly ends up being... Not usefull for security, not funny as a clown and mostly ends up being a food and drink dispenser for the crew... wich highjacks Bartender's and chef's job as it's instant food without any problems. (Also food processors are a spacebux only item)

Fun fact food dispenser is no longer a spacebux purchase for that exact reason. It’s only found in a certain prefab off station now.

[virvatuli]

I feel like this suggestion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about the cyborg's role on the station. TLDR; for people who have been here long enough to know why having Sec borgs is such a horrid idea, don't worry the dev team isn't quite that far gone and secborgs will not be reimplemented. Also, to head off "but this codebase does cyborgs differently and I like it better!" responses, I do not care and it is not applicable to how goonstation sees silicons within our ruleset, gameplay, and lore.

Cyborgs, like the AI, exist as part of the station. They are not meant to replace humans at doing a job, but act as tools to assist running the station. Key word here is assist. Thinking of their modules as a direct 1 for 1 replacement for a human job title is a flawed idea. By design they are meant to be limited, for a multitude of reasons, but a big one being that borging is used as punishment in many cases. You go from a free-willed human to a cyborg with a limited toolset meant to serve humans via law restrictions. Now, experienced borg players know that this isn't actually that limiting and if your laws get changed, cyborgs become pretty terrifying. How? Because you work around the limitations, as an example: instead of batonning someone into submission with your hypothetical sec baton, you rapidly bolt them down in a small room with electrified airlocks. Both accomplish the same thing, just with different methods. Borgs have immense access to the station's systems, which is incredibly powerful for those who learn how to use them correctly. You do not need a direct interaction of bonking an antag in order to validhunt them, and it's also why most players look upon cyborgs and an AI that goes around hunting down antags that are not threats to them in a very poor light, they suck and don't understand what a silicon's role on the station is, which leads into another big thing.

As a cyborg, antags existing is really not your concern.
On goon, AI laws have no "prevent harm" clause. What humans do to one another, unless you're ordered to intervene or your laws are changed, is frankly none of your concern. That being said, many silicon players choose to make it their concern, which is fine, but borgs have been designed with this idea in mind. The closest analogue for the brobocop module might be Security Assistant, but even then that's not accurate as Security Assistants have the ability to be a free-willed human. Brobocop has some tools you find in Security, but it is not and never will be a Security Officer analogue. Hunting down antags should be extremely far from your mind, you exist to act as a tool for Officers to utilise in aiding their job, be it watching cameras, writing tickets, etc.

Now I agree that some cyborg modules have more powerful toolsets. Mediborg is probably the most capable of all of them since they have many sharp implements and chemical delivery systems that will absolutely ruin a human's day. Other module toolsets (which can be customised I might add, a function of the module rewriter) do not need to be as powerful as any other given one. It's up to the player being the borg to decide how they want to assist humans in running the station. If you wanted to actually be a scientist, or a security officer, then you play as one as a human, not a borg. This all being said, yes, cyborgs definitely need some QoL love, but as a longtime silicon player myself, no, I never ever want to see them be "as good as" playing a human in the same way as being a human is. I want them to remain unique and function differently from playing as a human, challenging because you need to approach solving situations differently than you would as a human. Wanting otherwise is just completely missing the point.

[Kotlol]

I agree with you on the assisting part over replacing.

But still a security borg shouldnt be too farfetched, since we got beepsky no?
Maybe no baton but having paint rounds? I don't know...

If borgs can't stun em, fine by me. But assisting with zipties wouldn't be the worst.. but then again I misjudge people's creativity.
Also while you state "you don't do anything when you see antagonists" as a brobocop you have the sechud upgrade thus you can SEE if people are under arrest like Beepsky can.
Ergo the Beepsky comparrison....
This is where the "no prevent harm clause" comes into play. If a brobocop knows someone is suppose to be arrested... under what grounds do they act? They can't harm them sure.. but as long as they are "confirmed human" do they still have to unbolt doors then?
I have seen and delt with AI's locking me in doors since they see me commit crimes that doesn't do harm or has yet to do harm... Since I thought we had a "Ai discretion clause" too.

We can say: "Players can use their own discretion everytime"
But borgs are suppose to be well...robots mostly. I don't know...

Overall I think the borgs need abit of love and security borgs would be welcome even if they are just "assistants" but the brobocops are just security clowns that dispense food and aren't used well. Should they be glorified beepskies too to some degree? Or keep em as they are in their "Questionable" state.

[DioChasek]

Difference is Beepsky is an actual ai who follows their programming regardless of a players interpretation of their programming.

[virvatuli]

Again, you're fundamentally misunderstanding it Kotlol. Brobocops can see arrest overlays, that doesn't mean people on arrest are antagonists. If someone is a human they must follow their orders based upon the station's chain of command. There is no difference in their lawset, they have no special rights to ignore someone just because there happens to be an arrest status put on them. Unless they are instructed to do so otherwise of course. I also did not say "you don't do anything when you see antagonists", I said that antagonists are not the concern of silicons unless they are instructed otherwise, by a human or law change. That does not mean borg players cannot do anything about antagonists, it means that by default they shouldn't really care.

The possibility of having Secborgs is exactly zero, we are not interested in it.

[Maegor]

Honestly, bropocop's half joke existence sucks, imo. I'd change them to "Forensics":

Their kit, removed items crossed out, kept in italic, new ones in bold:

• Sound synthesizer
  
• Food synthesizer
  
• Space beer
  
• Zippo lighter
  
• Pen
  
• Pitcher
  
• Crayon 
  
• Probability disc In other words, a coin.
  
• Box-shaped sticker dispenser
  
• Probability cube
  
• Security RecordTrak 
  
• Forensic Scanner
  
• Audio Tape
  
• Camera Monitor
  
• Hand Labeler
  
• Security TicketWriter 2000 
  
• Igniter
  
• Whistle
  
• Bloodtrak
  
• Luminol Cybernetic Bottle
  
• Security Tape Dispenser
  
• Security Handkerchief (For wiping blood off the officers)
  

I think even giving them barriers could be tested. I doubt it will be any worse than Engineering with RCDs

---

Fun fact food dispenser is no longer a spacebux purchase for that exact reason. It’s only found in a certain prefab off station now.

And they were originally a Brobot tem anyway.

[Lucky.Cobra]

yea robocops feel like they dont really belond on any deparment, they could really use some changes and maegor idea sounds like a good base ground for the changes aimed to make them feel more like part of the sec team instead of a borg that just is around dropping food and making sticker monsters

---

or just remove brobocop and add some of his items to the civ borg

[babayetu83]

I feel like this suggestion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about the cyborg's role on the station. TLDR; for people who have been here long enough to know why having Sec borgs is such a horrid idea, don't worry the dev team isn't quite that far gone and secborgs will not be reimplemented. Also, to head off "but this codebase does cyborgs differently and I like it better!" responses, I do not care and it is not applicable to how goonstation sees silicons within our ruleset, gameplay, and lore.

Cyborgs, like the AI, exist as part of the station. They are not meant to replace humans at doing a job, but act as tools to assist running the station. Key word here is assist. Thinking of their modules as a direct 1 for 1 replacement for a human job title is a flawed idea. By design they are meant to be limited, for a multitude of reasons, but a big one being that borging is used as punishment in many cases. You go from a free-willed human to a cyborg with a limited toolset meant to serve humans via law restrictions. Now, experienced borg players know that this isn't actually that limiting and if your laws get changed, cyborgs become pretty terrifying. How? Because you work around the limitations, as an example: instead of batonning someone into submission with your hypothetical sec baton, you rapidly bolt them down in a small room with electrified airlocks. Both accomplish the same thing, just with different methods. Borgs have immense access to the station's systems, which is incredibly powerful for those who learn how to use them correctly. You do not need a direct interaction of bonking an antag in order to validhunt them, and it's also why most players look upon cyborgs and an AI that goes around hunting down antags that are not threats to them in a very poor light, they suck and don't understand what a silicon's role on the station is, which leads into another big thing.

As a cyborg, antags existing is really not your concern.
On goon, AI laws have no "prevent harm" clause. What humans do to one another, unless you're ordered to intervene or your laws are changed, is frankly none of your concern. That being said, many silicon players choose to make it their concern, which is fine, but borgs have been designed with this idea in mind. The closest analogue for the brobocop module might be Security Assistant, but even then that's not accurate as Security Assistants have the ability to be a free-willed human. Brobocop has some tools you find in Security, but it is not and never will be a Security Officer analogue. Hunting down antags should be extremely far from your mind, you exist to act as a tool for Officers to utilise in aiding their job, be it watching cameras, writing tickets, etc.

Now I agree that some cyborg modules have more powerful toolsets. Mediborg is probably the most capable of all of them since they have many sharp implements and chemical delivery systems that will absolutely ruin a human's day. Other module toolsets (which can be customised I might add, a function of the module rewriter) do not need to be as powerful as any other given one. It's up to the player being the borg to decide how they want to assist humans in running the station. If you wanted to actually be a scientist, or a security officer, then you play as one as a human, not a borg. This all being said, yes, cyborgs definitely need some QoL love, but as a longtime silicon player myself, no, I never ever want to see them be "as good as" playing a human in the same way as being a human is. I want them to remain unique and function differently from playing as a human, challenging because you need to approach solving situations differently than you would as a human. Wanting otherwise is just completely missing the point.

a lot of this feels like a lot of unwritten rules. there is very little ingame to properly illustrate these points to players. people come with preconceptions from other servers and there's nothing really ingame that dispels them outside of scenarios like this or in discord or if somebody notices and kindly informs them otherwise. and personally i feel like people who whinge about cyborgs being overpowered are just scrubs because they got outplayed by something that can be stunlocked for 30+ seconds and is about as durable as wet cardboard

personally though i think it'd be neat if there were something extra (that doesn't necessarily have to be a sec borg) that's behind a whitelist like hos/ntso for the more dedicated silicon players

[Ikea]

HoS/NTSO doesnt need even more additional additional stuff thats not really related to there job, it just helps convince people to apply for hos for the wrong reasons and also frames the job as something that needs to be rewarded to be played instead of a reward in of itself, which leads to a lot of bad behavior.

[nefarious6th]

camryn made brobocops initially to be half clown half detective, the goofy is intentional per this old thread on borgs
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...#pid157846

[Technature]

Let me tell you what will happen if security bots become a thing.

It's going to be filled with the most malicious people possible, and there are going to be ones that "conveniently" say every round that they "hope nobody hacks the AI today, it would be bad if I had to murder people ". And every round it happens, they will take sadistic glee in stunning, handcuffing (zip tying, whatever), and dragging whatever poor bastards they catch out into space to die the most boring way possible. The smart ones will make sure to drag them out to space before putting on Zip Ties whenever possible, likely not even leave the immediate vicinity of a space lock, because it takes time for stunned people to get up, and it's more reliable for them to not rat you out by pulling them somewhere they can't breath than by hoping people don't see the green slurred speech of the "Roooogguguuueeeeee AaaaaaaaaIiiiiiiii" that they scream over the radio as often as possible.

They don't need to stun people with anything on their person either. Cyborgs can just walk around, "looking for work", and when they see a chance to drag you into the most unfun death they can while no one's looking, they'll take it. They can even just shock a really close door themselves, and you're done for the round.

That's not even getting into the ones that "conveniently" forget to check names to make sure they don't kill the one person that unwittingly caused the chaos in the first place, and god help you if the crusher is open, or if the Cyborgs start outnumbering people.

To keep it short, making competent security borgs is a bad idea.

[babayetu83]

HoS/NTSO doesnt need even more additional additional stuff thats not really related to there job, it just helps convince people to apply for hos for the wrong reasons and also frames the job as something that needs to be rewarded to be played instead of a reward in of itself, which leads to a lot of bad behavior.

i mean i don't really see hoses acting out and i imagine those that do are dealt with pretty quickly and harshly considering the application processes, much like how mentors who can't keep their fingers out of the proverbial cookie jar and metagame are dealt with 

i didn't even say that it had to be tied to hos, just something similar to it 

and while i'm here and so i don't doublepost: if cyborgs are meant to be more supportive, what if brobocops had a feather to tickle people with? tickle them to make them laugh and also help security by tickling people by slightly extending the duration of a stun from their baton/taser (which would rapidly decay if overused so you couldn't just watch somebody get stunned and then just spam the feather to make them stunned forever)