Complaint CaptainBravo/Efrem, Admin Complaints, This Week

[AmazingDragons]

Admin: CaptainBravo/Efrem


Synopsis: Okay, I don't really know how to start this, but here goes. The Admin Complaints forum has typically been viewed as the sacred area where so long as one doesn't use it to launch personal attacks or harass an admin, people cannot be punished. The forum "When + How 2 Submit Admin Feedback" pin says this:

Admins may not punish players for complaints or use them against a player. However, this stems from the assumption that all feedback will be made in good faith, and so if there is a clear consensus that a player has made a complaint in bad faith, there will be repercussions. You're free to criticize admins' actions and conduct, and you're also free to disagree with our takes, but please don't devolve to personal attacks or break the rules. The point of feedback threads is to for constructive feedback that we can learn and do better from. Please don't make joke threads, as they'll just be deleted, and you'll be temporarily forum banned.
 
Thank you for caring. We'll be doing our best to not be jerks!

So recently, Nerzul posted an admin complaint (which honestly should have been a ban appeal, but that's beside the point), and while it was awful, and should effectively have been ignored, permabanning without letting them appeal for two years is excessive and sets a bad precedent. As far as I know, there have only been a couple of cases where someone's been banned for an admin complaint before, and those cases have been extremely clear-cut. For example, this post: https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=15198 and even in that case (where truly awful things were said) had someone speaking against it. On this post, there weren't any harassing messages, the closest thing was this: "This is a blatant mod abuse and overreach" which is extremely tame compared to many other admin complaints and ban appeals. It's not correct, the original actions were absolutely justified, the r-slur is a horrible word, but preventing someone from appealing for two years is one of the harshest punishments I've seen. Admins, think about the last time you've told someone they can't appeal for two or more years. It's not a regular thing, it's a harsh punishment for an admin complaint, especially from someone who doesn't understand the rules, but isn't actively wishing ill will on anyone. 

Then today, there was another admin complaint. This one about there generally being self-antags on rp and this not being handled well. Whether or not it's true, or if it's the fault of the players not ahelping or the admins not following through or whatever else (it's probably my fault, let's be real), the point is that the admin complaints forum is about "constructive feedback that we can learn and do better from." Responding with a poem is disrespectful and dismissive. The original complaint was absolutely in good faith, and while you can disagree with it, there's gotta be a respectful, measured response. Ley's was an excellent example of something that addressed the issue, shared information on behalf of the admins, and proposed a solution. Just... move your responses up a notch in respectfulness. Respond to the admin complaint with zero substance with your poetry skills, respond to the respectful complaints with respectful responses, and ban or extend bans for people who explicitly break rules inside their post. 

---

Respond to the admin complaint with zero substance with your poetry skills

To be clear, that's a joke. After re-reading that didn't seem obvious, sorry.

[Ion Mage]

As much as I dissapprove of the rule-breakers' actions, I agree, CaptainBravos general attitude has been terrible, and in particular, banning someone so harshly (pre-emptively, even), in a place thats supposed to be a sanctuary from that kind of retaliation is just not something I can sit silently by and watch anymore.  It's a treatment I wouldn't wish on all but the worst rulebreakers out there.  Furthermore it sets a precedent and opens the door for even worse abuses later down the line.

[Mrfishstick]

The recent complaint about self-antag on RP has now been cleaned up per existing rules of this sub-forum.

As for Nerzul‘s forum ban, it’s a bit murkier given their past behavior so we’re currently discussing it internally.

In any event, thanks for taking the time to write this all up to bring it to our attention.

[AmazingDragons]

Hi, just checking in to make sure this is still being discussed, since it's been a hot minute. I'm absolutely happy to wait while everything gets ironed out before any sort of admin statement or decision, but I don't want this to get buried or forgotten.

[Deadvickyart]

I was given a permanant warning the other day for making a complaint about harassment and rulebreaking from a mentor and it was deleted and I was chastised in PMs. Don't have much to add except I've also noticed this and it's one of the absolute fastest ways to ruin any sort of trust with the system or the people running it. It feels like a club where everyone's covering for everyone else's abuse.

Mrfishstick
The recent complaint about self-antag on RP has now been cleaned up per existing rules of this sub-forum.

As for Nerzul‘s forum ban, it’s a bit murkier given their past behavior so we’re currently discussing it internally.

In any event, thanks for taking the time to write this all up to bring it to our attention.


Blowing it off with "we'll review it privately" does not win back people's faith.

[UrsulaMejor]

I was given a permanant warning the other day for making a complaint about harassment and rulebreaking from a mentor and it was deleted and I was chastised in PMs.

Yes, you were given a warning because you broke our rules. The admin complaints forum is not the place to make callout posts about other players. (There is no such place.)

You received no chastisement in PMs. You were matter of factly told to use the /report command on the discord (or, failing that, the adminhelp feature in game) if you have an issue with another player's conduct.

It feels like a club where everyone's covering for everyone else's abuse.

We can punish two players at the same time. You were given a warning for misusing the admin complaints forum. That does not mean nothing happened to the other person involved.

RE: Nerzul and SirDavos' admin complaints.

This is in the admin complaints rules post  (https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=14437)


I believe that it can be said with some level of certainty that a bigot who uses the admin complaints forum as a secondary ban appeal forum, and another bigot with a history of bigotry who was then later banned for yet more bigotry, were not using the admin complaints forum in good faith.

While CaptainBravo's conduct in either case was not the most professional, it was within the boundary of what is allowable (if not preferable) when responding to bad faith admin complaints 

All things considered, the team has decided to lift Nerzul's forum ban such that they can appeal their ban at a later date, when they're willing to take our stance on anti bigotry a bit more seriously. SirDavos' admin complaint has already been cleaned of peanut posting per mrfishstick's earlier post.

[Deadvickyart]

I was given a permanant warning the other day for making a complaint about harassment and rulebreaking from a mentor and it was deleted and I was chastised in PMs.

Yes, you were given a warning because you broke our rules. The admin complaints forum is not the place to make callout posts about other players. (There is no such place.)

You received no chastisement in PMs. You were matter of factly told to use the /report command on the discord (or, failing that, the adminhelp feature in game) if you have an issue with another player's conduct.

It feels like a club where everyone's covering for everyone else's abuse.

We can punish two players at the same time. You were given a warning for misusing the admin complaints forum. That does not mean nothing happened to the other person involved.

RE: Nerzul and SirDavos' admin complaints.

This is in the admin complaints rules post  (https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=14437)


I believe that it can be said with some level of certainty that a bigot who uses the admin complaints forum as a secondary ban appeal forum, and another bigot with a history of bigotry who was then later banned for yet more bigotry, were not using the admin complaints forum in good faith.

While CaptainBravo's conduct in either case was not the most professional, it was within the boundary of what is allowable (if not preferable) when responding to bad faith admin complaints 

All things considered, the team has decided to lift Nerzul's forum ban such that they can appeal their ban at a later date, when they're willing to take our stance on anti bigotry a bit more seriously. SirDavos' admin complaint has already been cleaned of peanut posting per mrfishstick's earlier post.

they're a coder and a mentor and i was made to understand there were standards for the people you choose to represent you. github got back to me about the abuse and froze their accounts, i dont know why you guys are so stubborn about this when it's your guy

and no i'm not joining the fucking discord to get yet more abuse from people who demand i join the discord (same people who broke rules to harass me across sites!) and i absolutely was chastised in PMs, do you want me to post them

---

I believe that it can be said with some level of certainty that a bigot who uses the admin complaints forum as a secondary ban appeal forum, and another bigot with a history of bigotry who was then later banned for yet more bigotry, were not using the admin complaints forum in good faith.

While CaptainBravo's conduct in either case was not the most professional, it was within the boundary of what is allowable (if not preferable) when responding to bad faith admin complaints 

All things considered, the team has decided to lift Nerzul's forum ban such that they can appeal their ban at a later date, when they're willing to take our stance on anti bigotry a bit more seriously. SirDavos' admin complaint has already been cleaned of peanut posting per mrfishstick's earlier post.

I dont like this attitude of the subforum being a trap where you double down on punishments for unrelated issues and say it's justified because they're bigots, while the real pros know to go to discord (and open themselves up to more abuse in some cases) and use some bot that isn't mentioned anywhere. "good faith" goes both ways and the absurd punishments handed out for posting as requested by the sticky (which says that following the guidelines and not posting jokes or insults will not get you punished in any way shape or form!) just turns the place into a place for sucking admin dick because anything seen as sass or rule breaking (unwritten rules at that) will get you punished. Why even have the subforum at that point?

[UrsulaMejor]

This isn't your complaint thread, and the arguments you're bringing up have already been addressed and aren't relevant to AmazingDragon's complaint at this point. 

I'm leaving the thread open in case AmazingDragons has anything they'd like to add or comment on,  but I'd like to ask you to stop piggybacking your concerns onto someone else's thread.

[AmazingDragons]

Yeah, Deadvickyart's posts have nothing to do with this complaint, and don't reflect my views. I'm working on a longer post about this topic, but I have a life (at least, I did, before the pandemic) and it's not done yet.

[Marc]

Maybe this is peanut posting, but i've also been banned for an arguably excessive period of time for a relatively minor offense by Bravo. This one seems worse however.

I've seen enough of Bravo doing this kind of stuff that if I see them online, I'll usually log out

[ToxyNPoxy]

Just gonna plop this in here and say that I have seen some of this behavior first hand, I remember when I criticized captainbravo for leaving a poem under some dudes feedback, After which he then posted my previous ban reasons to put me down. That's all I really have to say.

[UrsulaMejor]

Maybe this is peanut posting, but i've also been banned for an arguably excessive period of time for a relatively minor offense by Bravo. This one seems worse however.

I've seen enough of Bravo doing this kind of stuff that if I see them online, I'll usually log out

First:

Your ban has nothing to do with this admin complaint by AmazingDragons regarding how admin complaints were handled. You are doing them an immense disrespect by using their thread as a soapbox. Start your own thread if you have a complaint; don't peanut post on other people's.



Second:

You have been banned 6 separate times by 5 different admins for bombing places as a non traitor, and 2 more times for violating our rules against sexual content. The idea that you see your offense as minor, or that you see your punishment as excessive for someone with such an extensive history, makes me doubt your sincerity. The only thing excessive here is the number of second chances you've thrown away.

Just gonna plop this in here and say that I have seen some of this behavior first hand, I remember when I criticized captainbravo for leaving a poem under some dudes feedback, After which he then posted my previous ban reasons to put me down. That's all I really have to say.

First:

You were peanut posting on someone else's feedback. Even if CaptainBravo's posts were later determined to be out of line and removed, that does not excuse you engaging in the same behavior. Other people's feedback threads are not the place to give YOUR feedback. Make your own thread in the future.



Second:

Your "previous" (and by "previous" we mean: literally two days before you made your post) bans and warnings for repeatedly breaking our no-bigotry rules are extremely relevant when assessing the sincerity of your criticism of how another player who broke the no-bigotry rules is being treated. I don't believe that it was out of line to bring them up when addressing you.



Third:

You are, once again, peanut posting in someone else's feedback thread with extremely dubious sincerity, given that you're posting this literally an hour after your ban appeal was denied. This is your final warning: do not use other people's sincere concerns as a platform to shit stir with misrepresentations of the facts or get into arguments.



If you (Marc or ToxyNPoxy or anyone else whose name is not "AmazingDragons") have anything more to say, make a separate thread. Do not continue to use AmazingDragons' post for this discussion. This is the last warning I'll be giving.

[AmazingDragons]

Okay, wall of text incoming, so beware. I'll do my best to remove any unnecessary information, but no promises.


The main takeaway of this is that there is a consistent pattern of over-escalation from Efrem.

There are a number of cases throughout goon media that I'd like to highlight, though please keep in mind there are many more that could be found, especially in the much larger ban appeals forum which takes forever to page through. This is not designed to be an exhaustive list, it's just intended to be enough to illustrate a clear pattern. If more examples are needed, I can provide them.


Disclaimer: The actions of the banned in any case I have discussed are not necessarily correct or good, they are just not deserving of the punishment or treatment returned. The point of this is not to justify bad actors, it's to bring attention to the responses of those actions.


Disclaimer pt. 2: I am putting together sources on these things, I obviously was not there. Feel free to mention any glaring errors or misunderstandings, but in the interest of addressing the overall issue, please don't cherry-pick minor things, that's no the point of this thread.




https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=16384 

First, there is this case, where Efrem was running an rp nukies round, but unfortunately picked some newer players who were in over their heads. Upon running into the lone security member, they initiated combat and the security member arrested two of them. Efrem pms and they briefly disagree, then the security member is daybanned. It goes to forums (ban app and admin feedback), then apparently private communications after which it is declared to be resolved. Here's the issue. Whether or not someone should prioritize being a realistic HoS or what's going to be the best for the gimmick is debatable, but you can see as one examines the logs, that it becomes apparent the primary concern is the bannee saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" a non-apology and a bit rude, to be fair, but worth a dayban and the threat of losing mentorship AND the repeated hurtful comments from a position of authority? Hardly. 


https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
Next, there's this case. Someone who was obviously newer to this game, because they didn't understand the ahelping system, sent an ahelp about being murdered and didn't get a response. They didn't get a response for a while, and didn't know that it's pretty rare for an ahelp to be responded too, especially if it's about antag status. (Their forum account was like a week old when they posted that thread, they were new.) Efrem then took it upon themself to change their ckey display to "FazbeusSmellsLikeSkunkVomit" which could, theoretically, be funny if they were close and both understand that it was a joke, but this was from a position of authority in a video game with no outside context and was hurtful. In that thread, it was acknowledged that this wasn't cool, but the specific quote was...

Second, we mostly agreed that Efrem should not have changed his display name to insult you. I do not condone his behavior.

There's no apology in there, it's from someone other than Efrem, and mostly? That implies that there was admins who thought it was perfectly fine, which is honestly concerning. New players being insulted for not understanding what is rather unique to us isn't wonderful. 


https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
This is another similar issue, where someone was adminwhoing, didn't know it made an admin message of some kind (literally I didn't know that until very recently, and I have 600+ hours in this game) and had done it multiple times in a short span. That's incredibly harmless. Efrem than responded to this by admin-killing the player (wtf!), respawning them in medbay, and then filling them to the brim with mercury, killing them without recourse. They also got their name changed to #1Adminwhoer. The player ahelps, asking for clarification and I'm just going to post the logs the player did because that's easier.

HELP: You: Pretty sure an Efrem randomly killed and respawned me in medbay, then when I was checking adminwho to see who was messing with me they changed my name to "#1 Adminwhoer" and then killed me again but without respawning me. So, what's this about exactly?

Efrem: didn't kill you. i did put mercury in you and change your name though, mostly because i saw you adminwhoing a bunch 

Efrem: i guess if the mercury killed you then i did kill you. would you like a respawn?

Me: Why though?

Efrem: oh wait. i did do the other one. and because you KEEP DOING IT 

Me: Is adminwho bad in some way?

Efrem: why do you feel compelled to do it more than once in a 2 minute period? it's just annoying. i relayed my annoyance. you're alive. feel free to yell at me to put you back to normal 

After that point I stopped replying as I wasn't going to be talked to like that and treated like a toy for his amusement, so I came here to write this post. I don't know if he was intoxicated or something but I'm very well aware that this was not a one-off case and many other players have been victim to this kind of behaviour from Efrem, some have written posts here about it, so here's mine.

Efrem starts off by lying about admin-killing, then admits it and deflects, trying to re-direct the attention onto the adminwhoing. The last thing I'd like to point out about this case, and arguably the most indicative of the poor behaviour, was the admin response. (If the image doesn't upload properly, you can see it in the link or through the imgur link here: https://imgur.com/a/ZTBdT3K)



This was disrespectful and honestly, childish. Instead of taking responsibility and owning up to their actions, Efrem tried to turn it into a joke and brush it off. Own your fuck-ups, not "I deserve to be BANNED for being a DILDO about ADMINWHO." 


Lastly, I'd like to talk about a personal case of minor over-escalation. I really don't want to rehash this, it's just a situation where I have a lot of information about it, so I think it's prudent to discuss it. In short, I was playing scientist and research was pretty quiet, I was mostly doing my own thing. Well into the round, I get hungry and order food, and when it arrives I walked into a corner or locker or something and logged off, without cryoing. This was obviously a fuck-up on my part, I should have taken the time to walk down to cryo and put myself in there and all that. I logged back in and I'd been turned into biomatter, which was a little strange, so I OOC'd at round-end (when I re-joined) about it. Fortunately, the ban appeal contains the quote, which was as follows.

I went afk and I came back to have been reclaimed

The round then starts up, and lo and behold I've rolled captain. I start getting set up for the round, picking out a fit, and all that, when a minor personal emergency comes up. Nothing serious, but it required immediate attention, and the game fully slipped my mind. I shut my laptop, scramble out of the house, and get it sorted. The next day, when I logged back in, I come to see a perma-ban to forums. Obviously, I should not have left the round, it definitely impacted everyone else's experience, and was a super uncool thing I've never done since. 

However, again, it was done rather poorly. The "rule" broken was under Things to Keep in Mind and has generally been sort of a courteous thing, rather than a strict requirement. The ban message also focused on the message which was, to quote a wonderful book, mostly harmless. Overall, it was a screw-up, but a minor one in the grand scheme of things, and likely could have been handled with a "hey please remember to hit f1 before leaving because otherwise it can fuck up the round for a lot of people, ty" and that would have gotten the message through.

Leaving the specifics behind, since I think (hope?) it's enough to make the point, I want to discuss general admin conduct. There are a few patterns I personally have noticed, and I believe the sentiment is mirrored by others. 

First, specifically with new players, there's a pattern of hostility that can lead to them feeling alienated from the game. I remember an admin talking about how only an extremely tiny number of players will appeal bans, especially ones that are "bans to forum". Of course, I don't have the numbers, but that's concerning. Every time a player is banned for something that they didn't understand or didn't know was a rule (which was literally demonstrated above in very clear terms) is going to lose the opportunity to become a productive and awesome member of this community, and instead, move on to another free game. This also extends beyond bans! I just saw Efrem insulting a brand-new player for their typing style in discord (read for yourself: https://discord.com/channels/18224996089...7365283941). This isn't cool! That's alienating, someone from a position of authority just told you to "type like a normal human being" instead of sending you useful resources and advice to get started. Being cognizant of the fact that most people who are playing their first handful of games aren't going to care enough to create a forum account, get it approved, then make a detailed ban appeal discussing their flaws, and wait for it to be accepted is important; and while yes, that dick who just wrote out every slur known to humankind isn't going to be a great loss, someone who adminwhos, or afks, or literally is asking how to play the game is not a bad person! In short, it's expected that admins give new players both the benefit of the doubt and basic respect. If that doesn't happen, they leave, and we lose a unique voice and possible contributor to this incredible community.

Second, the ends do not justify the means. We need to stop excusing shitty admin responses just because the player did something bad. The issue is not the escalation, it's the over-escalation. I've read many, many of these admin feedback posts and ban appeals relating to Efrem, and basically, every time stuff gets called out, the admin responding (be it Efrem or someone on behalf of them) uses a comment on the person complaining or some similar justification to soften the blow. This justification is generally legitimate and honest but detracts from the "apology" (in quotes because this is trying to encompass statements like, "we thought the actions were unprofessional", which aren't designed to be apologies). "Sorry, but..." isn't a good apology, and owning up means owning that within the context of the situation, the actions of the admin were bad. "Sorry, but you did say the admin was malding, or "sorry, but you shouldn't say 'sorry you feel that way'", or "sorry but they are also a problem player" isn't good enough, and clearly isn't enough accountability. Either decide that the handling of the incident was unprofessional, and that it ought to be corrected for the future, or decide that it was okay to escalate in the way that it happened, because of the player's history (or whatever else) and leave it at that. The only exception to this would be cases where the person's complaint itself was problematic (such as, I suppose, the "malding" case, that was a poor example) in which case it's fine to address that there.

Third, and most importantly, do not address these issues individually. I have spent an absurd amount of time (and even more procrastinating) working on putting together these issues, which have each been handled individually. This is not an individual issue, none of these problems are massive, glaring issues on their own, this is a consistent pattern of mild to moderate over-escalation and hostility, leading to over-arching problems. I do not want one issue within this post to be pulled out and sliced up to try and show how Efrem wasn't that bad in that situation. As admins say, this is the "straw that broke the camel's back".


Lastly, to address the other posters in this thread. Please don't try to take this over with whatever other issue you had with an admin. If this is a direct case of Efrem, specifically, over-escalating or acting inappropriately in a way that fits with these other cases, and you are willing to write out a detailed description of those events, that is fine. Anything else can have its own admin feedback thread. Thank you for working to keep this clear, Emily.

[UrsulaMejor]

I don't feel like it's appropriate to re-litigate every single admin complaint efrem has ever had. I'm going to point out a few things you've misunderstood, and then I'm going to close this thread.

dayban

Daybans are, essentially, warnings++. This game is not your life. You can take a break for a day. The admin team uses them liberally to accentuate that a warning is serious and needs to be considered, and they are especially used when it is clear that a person is not taking it seriously. They are very, very rarely an example of an "over-escalation" on the part of the admin, and it wasn't an over-escalation in that particular instance.

This was disrespectful and honestly, childish. Instead of taking responsibility and owning up to their actions, Efrem tried to turn it into a joke and brush it off. Own your fuck-ups, not "I deserve to be BANNED for being a DILDO about ADMINWHO."

You seem to have taken the exact opposite of efrem's intended meaning here. Efrem was literally banned for 30 days, and could not connect to the server for that period of time. That was him taking responsibility and owning up to his actions.

and mostly? That implies that there was admins who thought it was perfectly fine, which is honestly concerning

Admins have a tendency to hedge our language. There are between 30 and 35 of us active at any one time, and we often respond to things without waiting for everyone's input. Nobody wants to be the admin that says "ALL the admins think THIS" only for an admin to log on 14 hours later and say "hey, I don't agree with that!"

In other words, you're reading too much into it.

Leaving the specifics behind, since I think (hope?) it's enough to make the point, I want to discuss general admin conduct.

This entire section is basically a gish gallop of various claims that would take far longer to piece apart than it has taken you to write down. It's a solid chunk of text that, were we to individually address each claim, would take roughly double to triple the number of words you've produced to fully explain.

Instead of doing that, I'm just going to say:

You are missing information. As a player, you do not see everything that we see, everything that we do, and the various things that we're working on. You also have a very narrow scope (being one person) of the general playerbases' opinion of the admin team's performance. The idea that these things you have brought up represent some larger overarching problem is an easy idea to pose, but it ultimately isn't true. Player appreciation for the team is higher than ever, our playerbase is larger than ever, and we repeatedly and consistently hear from new players that we are doing just fine in onboarding them into long time players. For every complaint like this one, where you say our general disposition is too hostile, we get another complaint saying that our general disposition is too forgiving, and in my opinion that means we're doing just fine.

We can't be everything to everyone, and we're only human. Mistakes happen. They will continue to happen. But the totality of the evidence available to us is that, in terms of "general admin conduct", things are fine.