10-03-2017, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017, 09:10 PM by Tincan Man. Edited 1 time in total.)
How to fix Rev:
Remove it.
I hate to sound like a shitter but there's no way to fix Rev without completely busting the sides. Even with three revheads and a 10 minute announcement the revs could still easily group up and overwhelm the Captain, grab his stuff, and run off before there's enough time to get a counter effort going. If we nerf the revheads too hard, then it becomes "chain everyone to Cargo and order loyalty implants non-stop for two hours straight: the gamemode."
The gamemode is just very shitty at its design. It's too easy to convert people, it's too easy to deconvert people. One side gets the upper hand quickly (usually the revs, but a particularly auspicious HoS can notice whats going on within 30 seconds) and after that the gamemode either ends in 10 seconds or 10 hours due to one side stalling (i.e hiding in space or setting up heavily guarded forts in cargo/medbay/security).
If we remove Rev PDAs, then playing as a Revhead isn't fun and boils down to running around flashing people wildly until you die. If we keep them, then Revs are OP.
If we give the Heads an announcement, then that ruins the tension of figuring out its revs and the scramble - it's just a "oh it's revs guess it's time to grab my space suit" kind of thing. But if we don't, revs can go perfectly undetected and win insanely easily. There's nothing you can do about this mode without a complete overhaul, and even then Conversion-Based-TDM gamemodes in SS13 suck ass - and that's exactly what this is.
10-03-2017, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017, 09:17 PM by NateTheSquid. Edited 1 time in total.)
the words "conversion based TDM" made me think of an infection game type. posted in questionable ideas thread.
yeah rev needs a lot of work or just removal. i personally have enjoyed most of the rev rounds i've been in, but i'm almost never a rev or a head, just a bystander, so idk.
10-03-2017, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2017, 07:45 AM by Tincan Man. Edited 3 times in total.)
(10-03-2017, 09:13 PM)NateTheSquid Wrote: the words "conversion based TDM" made me think of an infection game type.
what if a unique antag that turns everyone it kills into a perma-mindslaved version of itself with the goal to infect everyone
It's been tried a couple times under a "Zombie" mode. Ends with people holing themselves up in a fort and never leaving until the shuttle arrives, usually the place they group up in is Cargo so they can order guns. Very boring. A "virus" type mode where someone plays as a Blob and could do something like that could be interesting, but it would take a lot of development time.
What I'm referring to by "Conversion Based TDMs" are gamemodes from the /tg/ codebase that revolve around some antag starting off weak but converting a bunch of people to his/their cause and eventually becoming overpowered. They all suck.
These gamemodes are from /tg/, and not Goon - for the sake of listing examples of poorly made "Conversion Based TDMs". Please do not take them as actual criticism of Goon's gamemodes - if you feel any of them line up with Goon's modes. Revolution On Paper: A mode where the greytide takes on the heads in a massive battle.
In Practice: A mode where the greytide takes the heads' heads in a brief, curbstomp battle.
Blood Cult (Nar-Sie) On Paper: Evil Chaplains use runes to stealthily build bases, sacrifice targets, and summon the Elder God.
In Practice: Just place blood walls in the halls so nobody can leave their departments and then spam the shit out of Stun Runes. Now you win.
Clock Cult (Ratvar) On Paper: Same as above, but with a heavier reliance on teamwork and base building than just capturing targets.
In Practice: Long, boring, and confusing. Nobody works together because nobody knows how it works.
Shadowling On Paper: Shadowpeople who are hurt by light travel in maint, or kidnap people, and hypnotize them into their goal until they can become OP.
In Practice: I could write a 6 page essay about how overpowered Shadowlings were.
Gang War On Paper: Gangs fight for control over the station until they can place down a dominator, and conquer it while Security and the Heads try to apprehend the Gangs.
In Practice: Welp, I died 5 minutes in because a gang boss instantly purchased a pistol and already has 3 buddies. It's okay, the shuttle's going to be called soon- aaand it's recalled for the fifteenth time. How long has the round been going on for? Two hours. Oh...
It feels like these types of conversion modes just don't work. It invariably leads to mass murder or one side having a huge advantage and/or stalling.
10-03-2017, 10:00 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017, 10:15 PM by Ed Venture. Edited 5 times in total.)
I've never seen a gang round go over the 50 minute mark let alone two hours. In fact I can count on one hand the times I've been in rounds that lasted two hours in near decade I've been playing on this server. That and Gangs on this server can't kill non gang members except for Security. Most of the time it's security trying to contain the gangs as they fight each other so no bystanders get hurt. I have legit fun with Gang mode. There's alot more player interaction between all the players than REV and the gangs tend to only target other gangs.
REV has potential, alot of us can see that. But no one is willing to code the changes for the mode or remove it at this point despite many people in the community constantly complaining about it. We won't know the future of this mode till a admin/coder tells us. Till then all we can do is complain till we get a response. It's a boring, repetitive cycle. Hopefully we can get some answers soon. Reworking a game mode takes lots of time but the modes that get that treatment always end up so much better then they did before. Just look at Nuke OPs. REV has had no changes. It's still the same as when I started playing all those years ago.
I agree that conversion models rarely work. Usually due to player preference and right of first action.
Of course players are gonna wanna blow shit up instead of keep shit from blowing up.
Of course the aggressors are gonna have an easier time when they don't have to worry about being pinged by admins.
Rev would probably be better if station heads (and maybe sec, if no conversion methods) were the antags. No toys; just raw, bureaucratic power... and maybe a few 'loyalty' implants. Have them get a call to exterminate liquidate extraneous crew assets while protecting key station assets for further use, (or not) or something.
10-03-2017, 10:20 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017, 10:22 PM by poland spring.)
Change rev to mutiny mode and make the heads the antagonists, yeah. Also don't give them traitor items for obvious reasons, except maybe fake moustaches
Objective for heads would be to put down mutiny/incite one by being huge assholes, maybe a few people in regular crew would have the objective pop up later in the round to throw a mutiny, unless they had a loyalty implant or something
how about this ridiculously simple fix for everything, well not really but whatever:
heads have a death implant that sends a notice to every head pda and sec that they have died, and an even bigger message if it's removed
this tells heads to watch it in case you just hear ping ping ping all heads except you down but also forces the revs to become creative by making deaths unrelated to them
10-04-2017, 05:43 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2017, 06:17 AM by Roomba. Edited 1 time in total.)
I’m going to guess probably not, on account of most of the discussion taking place prior to the night in question?
I mean, the tweaks are appreciated but why are you phrasing it in this particular manner
e: Also because apparently it took too much time to actually mention said tweaks, copied from the changelog: "Removed access to traitor items from Rev heads. They must now use the new Revolutionary Flash to convert. Gave security loyalty implants."
Quote:e: Also because apparently it took too much time to actually mention said tweaks, copied from the changelog: "Removed access to traitor items from Rev heads. They must now use the new Revolutionary Flash to convert. Gave security loyalty implants."
What's the diff between the standard flash and the "revolutionary flash"?
10-04-2017, 07:11 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2017, 07:12 AM by Mordent. Edited 1 time in total.)
(10-04-2017, 05:43 AM)Roomba Wrote: I’m going to guess probably not, on account of most of the discussion taking place prior to the night in question?
I mean, the tweaks are appreciated but why are you phrasing it in this particular manner
There were a half-dozen posts since the update. I figured making sure people checked the changes prior to commenting about further balance would be important. I'm not sure what you mean by the phrasing thing...
(10-04-2017, 07:05 AM)Sundance Wrote: What's the diff between the standard flash and the "revolutionary flash"?
Rev flashes take a period of time to work, so if you want to force someone to be converted you have to get them still somehow.
(10-04-2017, 07:11 AM)Mordent Wrote: Rev flashes take a period of time to work, so if you want to force someone to be converted you have to get them still somehow.
This is good, would mitigate rapid conversion.
Should more tweaks come down the line, I would also recommend having only one revolutionary leader, with the caveat that if they are killed 5-10 minutes in, a new one is chosen (similar to the buffer time in blob).
Goonhub
