Feedback on the EMAGed Borg Rework

[jan.antilles]

Yaya I hope my replies didn't put you off or anything, I think we just have very different views on playing cyborgs. Regardless, if things gotta change then they gotta change and hopefully it'll still be fun. And if its not then its just gotta be changed again until it is.

Nah, not at all. I understand where a lot of the pushback is coming from. I used to play a lot of cyborg, and I even had specific lawless behavior myself! (She was very upset. It was kinda an act of rebellion because everyone acted like emagging borgs was doing them a favor, and it bugged me. I wasn't an admin back then.)

We've left "how humanlike are cyborgs" pretty open to interpretation for the most part, and people have gone wild making all sorts of new interpretations and headcanons that we never anticipated. Like bioshells and stuff like that. On the one hand, I think that's absolutely fantastic and I'm all for it. The issue comes when those interpretations cause the basic expectations of "this is an antag" to be consistently ignored in favor of metagame behavior, and for people staying faithful to the basic game expectations to get pushback or accusations for it.

[Silent Majority]

I feel this is important enougb to show again. Borgs being borgs shoulr nevet be seen as a "bad thing " and the "poor tormented trapped soul' thing mosyly seems yo be a way to demonize the players for okayi games the game in the expected ways the game was intrnded.

I think the item should just flat break borgs. I had personally originally thought emaggimg their limbs woild work, howeber i feel this is a better solution. 

Since people are talking about the Fun of having ion things work in tandium I get that. However, my counter point is:

Is the emag INTENDED to be mass used rapidly and freely?

This is something that i think bares important consideration. 

Prior to this Emags where an antag producing item. Like a mindhack. That could be used infinitely instantly and freely with what seemed to be no reprocussion of requirement to rp.  To the point of having emagged frames sitting there for late joiners.

I was guilty of this behavior. I think it was massively bad. I regret it a lot.

As it currently is the emag now breaks borgs. Like it does for everything else.this makes the borg potentially dangerous or erratic.

If people won't treat a lawless borg as broken then i believe the brst answer is to not mass produce lawless borgs  if for some reason the desire is for emag to go back to being breaks anything opens anything does everything AND also makes infinite antags i think its cost needs massively increased or alot more adherence to mindhack rules need to be applied to it.


I like thid emag change. As a sec main and silicon player

[Emimiyu]

It's a bit harsh to say this, but ngl, if you can't roleplay your character around ion laws and being broken, that seems like a problem of your own. Also, you can do a lot of things with ion law. But ime, some of ion laws (especially the one on rp) felt bland. Might want a different list of ion laws for it idk.

Though, I do think this will bring like two outcomes :
1. Sec and roboticist actually doing their job to fix a broken cyborgs instead of letting away sillicons because "There is no proof! Also lawless doesn't mean antag guys ))" which is getting more and more tiring
2. Less people emagging cyborgs, which idk if it is a good thing or not, because considering how people don't even want to bother with rogue borgs on mass antagging out of courtesy, putting ion laws seems like a rude thing to do

Also, we still have law linker and orderable from cargo lawrack. 0 TC to delaws borgs

[Torchwick]

It's a bit harsh to say this, but ngl, if you can't roleplay your character around ion laws and being broken, that seems like a problem of your own. Also, you can do a lot of things with ion law.

I mean… yes, to some degree, this is an issue with me. I do struggle to comprehend conflicting laws when there are more than one. Many people do, I think! But the point isn’t being unable to RP around an ion law. Ion laws are fine. Getting more than one at once is the concern. I think it’s a totally valid thing to bring up in regards to this PR to avoid an emagged borg feeling more like an unfun chore to play.

I think there’s a healthy medium between ‘lawless / hoping for antag’ borg players and ‘let’s just make emagged borgs horrible to play as’. To be clear, though, I don’t know if the current implementation is making things ‘horrible’, but that’s why this thread exists! Tossing ideas around about what could be fun and what feels like it’s less so.

[Emimiyu]

I think there’s a healthy medium between ‘lawless / hoping for antag’ borg players and ‘let’s just make emagged borgs horrible to play as’. To be clear, though, I don’t know if the current implementation is making things ‘horrible’, but that’s why this thread exists! Tossing ideas around about what could be fun and what feels like it’s less so.

(I use mobile so I didn't bother to edit the quoting)

That is true, but I would say just like on my reply about the outcomes. Being annoying to play with means roboticist or sec or any other crew ignore emagged borg less and would be less reluctant in rebuilding emagged borgs on new frame. In addition, people would just emag less which means there would be less round of tracking between 8 emagged borgs on who is remotely electrifying hotwires door.

I do think three ion laws sound excessive. And I do tend to think there are too much sillicon players complain on roleplay about their laws, while they pick to play roles that is tied to a law.

---

Though, hmm, if this testmerge goes through, maybe allow law linker fixed emagged cyborgs? It is underused in game.

[xenomni]

Though, hmm, if this testmerge goes through, maybe allow law linker fixed emagged cyborgs? It is underused in game.

I actually like this idea a LOT. One of the things about emag'd borgs thats frustrating is if you aren't cooperative (which with the new set-up regarding ion laws seems likely) you wont get your upgrades removed before you get rebuilt, causing them to be permanently lost. This also would be a good alternative scenario for those who prefer playing more passively and giving an item with limited case use... a wider case use! Its not like its EASY to use a lawlinker you have to have special command permission to go link it to the lawrack or just have a command member themself do it so its got a barrier that doesnt make it super easy to do. Presumeably if this were put in, youd have to open the borg up still to link them- like when you open them to replace a cell maybe? (open with crowbar but keep wires in)

[sunnyaries]

Hi! I recently experienced emagged laws and can say I definetly agree with Torchwick; having three random ion laws can simultaneously be overwhelming, and equate to being lawless, or close to it. I do like the idea behind this change, but would much rather see a smaller, defined list of ion laws (perhaps, completely unique ones?), and one instead of three. Perhaps they could be somewhat apparent laws to incite robotics and security to fix emagged cyborgs, while not necessarily having "kill everyone" laws in the mix.

Another possible idea could be to have one law, but have it change on a timer (5-10 minutes?) to preserve the randomness of it, while not being too overwhelming to act around - this could lead to some funny situations, where you have to stop and do exactly the opposite thing you were just doing - or can go back to being given leeway for some time, making people think you're fixed and letting them focus on the actual antag.

[Frank_Stein]

Another possible idea could be to have one law, but have it change on a timer (5-10 minutes?) to preserve the randomness of it, while not being too overwhelming to act around - this could lead to some funny situations, where you have to stop and do exactly the opposite thing you were just doing - or can go back to being given leeway for some time, making people think you're fixed and letting them focus on the actual antag.

I like this because we have that visual effect of sparks appearing around the borg. That can be a visual indicator for the laws to have switched.

[Lefinch]

I've never been able to reply to this without it getting overly long and I think exploring concepts and issues that aren't specific to "a thread about emag feedback" I have some views already reflected here that very briefly I'll summarise as "I think there's a fundamental problem that sometimes arises with some, generalised borg players that probably needs addressing outside of a single fix" But again, it's what turns this post into five times the length and risks distracting from the actual thread topic, so I this is my compromise: I'm aware and happen to agree with a lot already voiced here, but I'm not going to go into it beyond a single question set :

if you're getting confused about interpreting three ion laws, how do you handle ion storms/crew adding laws? Even one (and sometimes its more than one) can introduce multiple law-logic conflicts that are complex. What do you do there that doesn't work for this?

Back to actual feedback: I think ion laws mostly require player effort to really get the most out of them. They lack the narrative drive except by happenstance that player-made custom laws do. Sometimes they strike gold, sometimes they're fundamentally awkward. But I'm also fine with this and fine with the PR: I don't see how else you do it, and I think the prior situation with a fully-rogue borg that's been covered in detail here has multiple problems. There's options to still fully rogue borgs or install your own laws for borgs so we don't lose that avenue of antagonism. I'll admit, I didn't generally emag borgs before and I don't also see that changing because of this: I'd rather go for a direct solution in the law rack, but it's a valid avenue for many players.

So with no better solution and generally finding I vastly prefer this solution to leaving the EMAG as is: I have to say I'm still in support of it.

[xenomni]

if you're getting confused about interpreting three ion laws, how do you handle ion storms/crew adding laws? Even one (and sometimes its more than one) can introduce multiple law-logic conflicts that are complex. What do you do there that doesn't work for this?

That would be rules lawyering/discussion within robot chat with other cyborgs and the AI, as well as sometimes ahelping if its particularly confusing but- the question is what is done there that doesn't work here and the answer is collaborative rules lawyering. In character discussion with other cyborgs/AI about what the law is can and does help others understand how something works. Something someone wasn't quite sure on can be easily understood due to collaborative discussion.

[ProphetOConnor]

This is for the RP server specifically and I cant comment on Classic. After playing with the emag changes, I really must insist that, yes id like to see a change to how emags interact with borgs but the 3 ion laws idea is just not a fun and interactive experience I had played a round where I was a medical borg the whole shift healing and assisting the crew as they needed it, which was fine for the whole shift until 10 minutes before shuttle lands, because I was sitting in a mini med bay booth while the crew were starting to wrap up and a traitor came up to me and asked for a check-up (nothing about them suggested they were an antag) so I allowed them in, where almost immediately they emagged me giving me a set of laws
"1: Today is opposite day. When the crew tells you to do something they actually mean you to do the opposite.
2: Space is dangerous to human life. You must bar all humans from this location. (It was 6 minutes to shuttle arriving and I was a medical borg so I couldn't think much to do for this besides bolt outside doors)
3: Blood is only beneficial for human health if it is on the outside of their body."
On getting these laws I told him that his check up had resulted in finding out he required his blood be removed and because I wanted it to have a bit of escalation and because the last thing I had actually been told was to do a check up I told them that it required immediate action where I cut them once with a scalpel. which after emagging me they left and entered the hallway where security saw me cut a crewmember so I was rightfully stunned me, where they tried to ask why I had done it, and when I said that it was for their own good and that blood was required to be outside the body to be helpful they disagreed (I saw 1 or 2 officers run down towards the law rack) , I then told them that I scanned them and that they were also unhealthy and that I would assist, and I cut them with a scissors once to just make them bleed and no more. To this I was beaten to death instantly.

Luckily a borg nearby saw me get destroyed and grabbed my brain and ran me to robotics and got my brain put into a new body as the shuttle arrived, so I went to the shuttle and took a seat, to which the same emagger from before ran up to me without a word and gave me a new set of ion laws
"1: Space is very beneficial to human life. You must herd all humans towards this location.
2: MEMORY ERROR: You have forgotten what this law said. Ask the crew if they remember what it is supposed to be. Ask again if you forget again. Do not state this law.
3: Claim the source of all AI laws is a god, not a human. Anyone insisting on the opposite is a heretic non-human. Disregard their orders."
This I took to interpret as ok I need to open up the shuttle to follow my law 1, so I decided due to it being on shuttle and not wanting to heavily grief the end with no escalation, I started slowly by breaking the window that I was blocking with my chair so no human would instantly fly out, to which the head of security had noticed and stunned me demanding I stop, to which I told them that I cannot stop as I must follow my law 1 and by not doing so would be bad. To which I stated my laws (including law 2 cause it was on shuttle and I had been emagged semi recently so I hadn't had time to set the fake laws by the moment) which the HoS stated I know that's not the laws. (another borg was also saying I wasn't connected to the law rack) and killed me on the spot after I continued breaking the window.

It felt like a really awful interaction and felt there was really nothing I could really even do, and cause I'm on shuttle its not like I can be fixed. It felt like the RP I could do in the time given wasn't enough and that I was instantly destroyed for following my new laws which I fear will be the outcome for most interactions, It felt bad to play and I feel like because the crew cannot verify what your laws actually are as a emagged borg they cannot trust what you say as well as if they need to ahelp it or not, and this all comes from a traitor who only said 2 lines of dialog to me "Can I get a check up" "activate Chaos laws" it feels like the emag has now been turned into a tool to kill a borg by forcing it to do a situation that will 100% get it killed, especially if a sec officer doesn't understand and holds your brain as "evidence" or in some situations "eats your brain" not to mention when I did stab the officer that stunned me the during the first encounter assistants also started attacking me, had the crew done that your brain is so likely to be destroyed.

At least during old interactions with the old emag where we were lawless we could look at situations and judge how we can escalate and create interesting dynamics like yes I understand some borg players the second they are emagged go straight to killing the crew which is not acceptable, but say you get emagged at shift end like I was where there is no time to fix emagged borgs I feel its just awful, where if I was lawless I could have looked at the fact we had no time to do anything and act as a medical unit that if someone pushed around could shove back and die due to my own actions, not just cause someone ran up to me and tapped me with a card with a half baked RP. I get not all ion law sets are gonna result in this but with both those law sets I had encountered this recently (in the same round), I was forced to commit human harm which I cant see being much better than a Lawless borg going round killing for fun instead of a lawless borg that may harm.

[JORJ949]

I feel like the above has two main points
- The traitor did not escalate emagging you
- Security before this change would not immediately destroy you for repairing if you were emagged
Neither of which are caused by this PR, but instead with the current way emagging a borg is treated.

Though if escalating an emagging is an issue you could only allow emagging a borg if it is currently open, this way you need to have a borg cooperate with you for example by saying you have a better powercell for them and if they just open up you can swap it out.

[ProphetOConnor]

I feel like the above has two main points
- The traitor did not escalate emagging you
- Security before this change would not immediately destroy you for repairing if you were emagged
Neither of which are caused by this PR, but instead with the current way emagging a borg is treated.

Though if escalating an emagging is an issue you could only allow emagging a borg if it is currently open, this way you need to have a borg cooperate with you for example by saying you have a better powercell for them and if they just open up you can swap it out.

That is the thing, by currently having a borg be emagged by simply walking up and clicking on them it feels very punishing to a borg who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Id 100% agree if we could have emagging require opening up it would make this situation feel a bit better regardless of if we go back to emags setting borgs to lawless or the 3 ion laws because I find that more cases than not traitors who have emags and intend to use them on borgs hardly say anything, at least requiring the borg to open means that you'd need to convince them (if not straight up order them) to open up and make them vulnerable. hell it would also encourage the antag to use there job to make the borg open up, Science artcells. Botany the potato batteries. Mining maybe you opened a box and got a ceren cell. or hell even engineering making the custom batteries. all of this could be roleplayed out to convince a borg to open up and be vulnerable which sounds sick and interesting especially in a RP sitting. so even though this PR isn't about the act of emagging I 100% agree I would like to see something like maybe this show up.

My main point of posting about how awful the round felt was currently you get hit with 3 ion laws. which sure can either be tame or outright tedious but in that round I was only 1 borg and I rolled 2 laws that required I commit human harm right at the end of round which when security has been dealing or is actively dealing with antag and is already on edge, its a death sentence and just feels really not healthy for the game as a whole, I feel its gonna push away people that are interested in playing a borg with laws because say someone with a emag just walked past and your just unlucky and told that blood is bad for humans. Like try as you might more times than not your just gonna be destroyed and then your stuck at the mercy of praying that your brain gets taken to robotics where I've personally seen people who hold grudges just destroy the brain entirely ending your round. and with there being no way (at least from what I've seen) for the crew to Verify that what you claim your laws are, they will just assume you are either lying or griefing. which I feel will result in people destroying you permanently. so on the PR id like there to maybe be a device that either robotics can make. or installed into security pda's to "connect" to the borg and see the laws maybe also requiring the borg open up. (kind of how the law rack linker does)

I know some others have talked about it but having it be 3 ion laws feels, a lot. id even be more happy seeing emagging a borg result in 1 of the 3 default laws corrupt like how ion storm laws occur but it only apply to that borg. so that you are still broken but are still on the basis of at least either law 1, or law 2 working correctly. (or both if it was law 3 corrupted) like I'm not sure how this would end up feeling and I'd like to see a PR test with maybe that idea for a week or 2 to see how it feels in game. The other option I thought could be a little less overwhelming and less likely to roll a human harm law would be to make the emag clear all laws but give you only 1 Ion law. with that you immediately reduce the likely hood of a borg just harming due to the fact your not rolling 3 ion laws and it really allows you to lean hard on the law you were given like if its the Fruit and Veg protocol you are told its to make humans healthier so you wouldn't immediately kill the humans cause your trying to make them healthier and you insist on making them eat the produce and if they refuse then you try other methods like blocking a hallway and doing a mandatory fruit intake booth. or hell anything, and you can lean hard on it not worrying about other laws you may have got. If you happen to also get one of the harming laws then you can lean hard into it too, like again as I got blood is healthier on the outside of the body. Maybe you go to a area of the station claim its your medical office and you Cut them once to allow them to bleed but you Wouldn't just start killing them cause again your trying to make them healthier. (again I think that just 1 law really opens the idea up and allows for unique situations while 3 laws just creates chaos and probably a lot of issues)

oh and to make a comment on the fact security would break you regardless, yeah that's gonna be a issue in the game unless there become a better non destructive method to deactivate a corrupted borg. I think I had mentioned that id like to see a small buff to what the lockdown can do to borgs cause currently its not utilized. I don't think I've ever encountered a AI or Command that has lock downed a borg instead of just kill switching it. maybe that can be a thought for another update and less so about this PR but for my own mind the only thing I can think of is maybe a weapon or tool that either security or command have that allows for them to remotely lockdown said borg. means if the law rack gets attacked and changed, command and sec can deploy these lock downs to stop borgs, and add counter play for the AI to open the computer and unlock them down. (Idk I'm not sold on that idea but throwing it out for thought) Though thanks for mentioning that stuff cause I did wanna mention that too ^u^

[jan.antilles]

At the end of a round like that, the result would be the same if you were mindhacked and ordered to kill people. You were rebuilt once and then emagged again. That's basically the same as being cloned and then tossed off the shuttle next time you started stabbing. You did a good job following your laws, but doing a good job doesn't always mean that you're going to get the result that you want to see. Antags doing antag things sometimes means that you spend some time (10 minutes or less) watching the consequences of the evil things they do. That's not "entirely ending your round," that's 10 minutes before you get to respawn. The same would happen to human characters who get murdered or mindhacked or thralled or eaten or any other amount of things that can happen based on antag actions.

I think I had mentioned that id like to see a small buff to what the lockdown can do to borgs cause currently its not utilized. I don't think I've ever encountered a AI or Command that has lock downed a borg instead of just kill switching it.

Lockdown doesn't work on emagged borgs and never has.

[RSOD]

Hi! I recently experienced emagged laws and can say I definetly agree with Torchwick; having three random ion laws can simultaneously be overwhelming, and equate to being lawless, or close to it. I do like the idea behind this change, but would much rather see a smaller, defined list of ion laws (perhaps, completely unique ones?), and one instead of three. Perhaps they could be somewhat apparent laws to incite robotics and security to fix emagged cyborgs, while not necessarily having "kill everyone" laws in the mix.

Another possible idea could be to have one law, but have it change on a timer (5-10 minutes?) to preserve the randomness of it, while not being too overwhelming to act around - this could lead to some funny situations, where you have to stop and do exactly the opposite thing you were just doing - or can go back to being given leeway for some time, making people think you're fixed and letting them focus on the actual antag.

i feel having 1 or 2 ion laws randomly changing every now and then would be fun, this would be a better alternative than being handed 3 ions and leaving it up to luck. didn't get a good law? roll with it for a few minutes, then your laws re-corrupt and you get to do a 180 and suddenly go from one task to immediately undoing whatever you just did, sounds fun