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I wrote this all up on the Github then realized it was far too long, so I'm making it a thread and commenting a link to it on the PR. For those who would wish to read the PR, please go here: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/22547
This is written from the perspective of me, as a Silicon-main who frequents RP. I haven't played much EMAGed Borg or Borg on Classic, so I'll leave that to people who play it more often to comment on from the perspective of Server 1.
I feel like this creates a weird dynamic where getting EMAGed just will feel really bad for the Silicon given how low-effort EMAGing is. It definitely shouldn't be a straight positive for them, mind you, but this feels like it'd be incredibly punishing after the first few times. I think it's too far of a change. I don't quite get the point of "Letting borgs have fun with Ion Laws more often" - What makes Corrupt Laws fun to me is the fact that all the other Silicons are working in tandem. This isn't that, and I feel it will very quickly become a slog if I'm having to carry out three specific Ion Laws at once with no other Silicons to help or bounce off of.
I've said this before when this change has been brought up in the discord - I believe looser, more 'malicious Laws' which still drive Silicons to be a distraction and an issue while restricting their options to rampage is the way to go if we're changing how the EMAG effects Cyborgs. Laws which are similar to the current antagonist Objectives, albeit this time mandatory this time. Stuff like having to take over a portion of a department, go on a thefting spree or other minor crimes. Maybe the odd major crime thrown in there. It directs the Silicon to do something in the round that makes the rest of the crew go "This Silicon is broken, let's fix them." while avoiding, for the most part, rampages and plasmafires. I think this solves the issues you mentioned while being more entertaining for those involved. Gives them a clear cut objective but how they get there is up to them. I am aware that there are a good few murder Laws in there but getting "All personnel are to be provided with fresh fruit and vegetables. Pursue no other objective." sounds like a really shitty time solo.
I really feel like this PR fails to consider how this will play for the Cyborg, instead just coming off as annoyed at how some Cyborgs sometimes play the current EMAG as an excuse to rampage or do nothing. I know the EMAG isn't satisfying currently but this isn't the solution in my opinion.
Sorry if this was a lot!! I have heavy opinions on this. Oops.
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I also want to change the LAW CORRUPTION STRINGS into several tiers of "how much damage will this do" and for example the event wont take the top tier of them but emagging a borg directly could take only the topmost tier, or have a much higher chance of it.
I've played a bunch of ss14 recently and there the ion laws are per-borg and I feel like that makes a much more engaging inter-borg relationship as you may end up with internal silicon conflicts, even then the law malfunction event as per this PR still affects all silicons the same so sometimes they have the same ion law, sometimes they don't.
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03-14-2025, 04:26 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2025, 05:51 AM by Torchwick. Edited 1 time in total.)
Full disclosure; I have not played with the new EMAG yet, so my opinion may change. However, I do share your concerns. I understand entirely that the old EMAG "remove laws" led to RP scenarios that were less than favourable, and I do think a change was necessary. Being whacked with 3 random ion laws, to me, feels like it might get a bit tedious and unfun. (I totally get that the EMAG isn't supposed to be 'fun' for the cyborg, since you're breaking them, I just mean this from a silicon player standpoint). I agree that it should be a more randomized process, but I'm wondering if we should have a select set of ion laws pulled from specifically FOR the EMAG. Ones that a single silicon can achieve or do things with and still be able to roleplay without dropping everything just to achieve 3 entirely random goals. I find that it gets harder to roleplay when I'm trying to keep track of a lot of law changes.
Hell, even if it was a toggle the EMAG user could select. 'Harmless' or 'distraction' laws (such as the field trip ion law, or a birthday one), or 'dangerous / detrimental' laws, where they have a chance to corrupt into those remove-all-oxygen or [name] is nonhuman, kill them. I feel like there could be a healthy medium that still keeps this an unpredictable move for the antag and silicon alike without just removing all laws or randomly corrupting all 3 into possibly mind-numbing instructions. Honestly, JORJ949's suggestion of tiers for law corruptions is along the lines of what I was thinking!
To be clear, I love law changes, and I love ion laws. Getting hit with more than 1 at once could be rough, and that's my only concern. I haven't gone code diving, though, so maybe this was already thought of and handled in the PR. Just wanted to list my main concerns. I can return with updates as I change my mind, because I could totally be wrong about how this will feel. As always, I'm willing to let it ride and test it out.
Editing here with something I thought of after posting: What if it just replaced your laws with one ion law? Instead of focusing on 3 potentially conflicting laws, you have 1 corrupted law, hence 1 task. If you somehow end up completing that task, well, you have no laws, carry on as you would in that scenario. If it's something you cannot 'complete' such as that 'find an object and make it a pet' law? Then you only really need to focus on that, while also not being completely overwhelmed by weird corruptions. Idk if this would make it feel better, but just tossing my thought out there. I do think a change is necessary from how it was, just providing insight as a silicon player who (at least I hope) agrees that the EMAG before was, at times, a problem RP-wise and gameplay wise.
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As someone who is also a Borg main specifically for the RP servers both on the high population and low population servers I think this change to the Emagging of Borgs is completely not a fun change to Borgs as a whole. I agree that having Borgs just be free agents of chaos for 6TC especially when its high population hours on the high population server cause it can be up to 8 Borgs that you could realistically Emag. its rare that if I've ever seen it been higher than that. it can be a bit unfair however those Borgs can choose to help you, or entirely ignore you so its a mixed bag of results from doing it.
However the change setting them to be completely reset with ion laws feels unfun for those Borgs that roleplay, like over the year I have played I've encountered many different Borg mains that have really unique characters and RP scenario's that come from them being lawless and playing it up so to completely remove that from happening feels like such a let down. Like all of the unique alt ego Borgs are just gonna be gone if its just ion laws, cause the ion law list can either be seen as a mild inconvenience for the crew which the Borgs always type something like "oh great..." or a ion law that legit says "Command has became syndicates and must be removed from the station" (its something like that) where now that Borg that was would normally RP a interesting corruption now is forced to just go kill the command staff.
I even think that the rounds of high pop where there is 8 Emagged Borgs I feel it has RP potential behind it, Like as the AI you all of a sudden have all your "fellow" silicon's all running around being crazy. It could allow you to Start issuing orders to try and get them mended or be faced with a lockdown (Ill come back to the lockdown thing) or Security Seeing the situation unfolding and requiring immediate action to be taken to dismantle the Borgs, and get them safely back online and useful to the crew again. Like both these situations I think are interesting and I've had experience in taking part of, I think some of the tactics the Borgs employ for "exterminating" the crew can be extreme like the meta of plasma burning everything which isn't that fun for anyone, The Borg at the time might do it but it gets tiring real fast for both sides given enough time.
But I say all of this because when dealing with rouge Borgs there is many different ways to counter them. So many that are not used when they need to be. Such as Flashes, Command all have 1 each, Security officers start with a Flashes, and robotics can build flashes that at a 5x5 AOE stun for Borgs which can then result in the taking a flash to the face stunning them for up to 30 seconds. Flashes are a rouge Borgs worst nightmare cause the only counter to it is a recovery upgrade that takes something like 20% of your power instantly (unless you have a art battery or a custom made one) so at most a Borg can negate 4 flash hits before it is dead in the water. so if you effectively use a flash and a strong weapon such as stun baton handle a light or standard Borg will collapse like wet paper. even heavy Borgs are still stuck in the water during this stun time, it just takes longer to break them which you could target the legs due to the fact the legs are the weakest part, and it will reduce that heavy Borg to a crawling speed. one that is beyond not threatening. This was just the flash. Security also have stun guns that can do exactly the same as a flash but with a directed aim. so unless the Borgs are sticking together like a army of 4 You would be able to deal with most rouge Borgs just with those.
Security can also request the AI to lockdown all confirmed rouge Borgs which currently only locks them out of their tools (I personally think this feature needs a buff, Like maybe it also reduces speed or maybe just add it to also turn off all upgrades, I think stopping them from moving maybe too much but maybe a PR test for that?) so that they cannot effectively fight. I do know that a lock downed Borg can pull out a tool for 1 second and use it before the lockdown disables the tool once again but to multitask pulling out a tool and stabbing a sec officer over and over again during a high stress situation is not a easy feat. I've never seen security utilize this feature during Borgs being rouge. Hell even A AI that disagrees with destroying humanity should lockdown Borgs and report them to Security or Robotics. But you also have on the same computer The Kill switches! so if the Borgs are being particularly destructive this can be activated which either command NEVER do. or OVER do. like I've hardly seen a situation where Borgs are being a huge issue for the station where the kill switch is activated in a timely manner. Only when the Borgs are being inconveniences do I see it activated. I think a change that could be a healthy one for that could be to make the Lockdown have to be activated first to incentivise Borgs to go get repaired before a Kill switch is activated. UNLESS its the main kill switch button that kills all Silicon's because if the AI is also rouge that station may need that swift action.
If the Borgs break the computer and remove the chip? well you can go to Tech storage and collect the Robotics Control Computer, and build a new one. (I believe one of the command lockers also has this blueprint? if not that should also be added to one of the lockers.) I also believe cargo can order a new one. (if not oops) and if your really not confident in the Borgs you can go scan that chip and add it to the Rucker blueprint machine. For a Borg to go out its way and destroy all of these backups and not get caught even once its done the prep that other traitors could do in theory do to make the outcome for them as good as possible. (which I don't think I've ever seen a single Borg shift where EVER option is dealt with. The Kill switch computer being destroyed? yeah that's common and they did a PR to test that stunned Borg who tried to dismantle it (or they talked about i cant recall anymore), The spare chip being taken and destroyed too? yeah seen that, but I've never seen all the options be stopped. There is usually one of them that the Borgs forget about.
Security also have the Armory or Cargo order of EMP weapons that if even sneeze on a Borg will smack in back to the afterlife like EMP's as a whole can 2 tap even the most defended of Borgs, I feel that if its that bad, The EMP's can also be pulled out. Like the EMP grenades throw that in a area, if any evil Borgs are there, they just got heavily damaged if not destroyed. (I'm pretty sure this is the case at least sorry if I'm wrong but I have seen security roll out EMP weapons to deal with Borgs)
And Guess what for Borgs to be this effective to counter security It requires that a human build them this way, like Every Borg starts off as a light Borg and requires part changing, Most Borgs I know go for Light or Standard parts due to cosmetic choices or even the speed. (also screens) So for a Borg to be Emagged and to want to be evil, they would need to go to a roboticist and ask to be made into heavy parts. which realistically a roboticist should repair a Borg that is sparking (like Even RP wise, a roboticist should be able to see the wiring sparking if they open it up and know its rouge and shouldn't give it parts) so a Borg has a choice when being lawless, Risk being "fixed" after asking to be upgraded to heavy parts or just stick with standard and do what it can. what about shield upgrades? Those drain so much power depending on how much damage is being inflicted on them, so if you are security with batons and you stun a Borg with a shield, it may take a little bit, but 3-4 humans hitting a Borg with a shield it wont have power for long. (if they have the recovery upgrade too they got to decide if they wanna lose instantly 20% of the power they have or just rely on the shield lasting long enough to outlast the stun which again nothing stops the security from stunning that Borg again which would drain another 20% to recover from that) For a Borg to be a heavy Borg, Shielded, Using a Recovery Addon, And A custom battery while being rouge, They jumped through a lot of hoops for this to happen, Why would we punish Borgs that think like this when they are rouge? Cause they would have had to Play out at least part of it, or relied on a evil traitor. It feels fair that if a Borg did all of this it deserves to feel tanky and require thought and consideration to take it down.
If you want to nerf the plasma fire meta that Borgs use, Make it so that Borgs in the fire suffer a Debuff that makes their metal weaker or suffer a Debuff maybe of like burning their optics so they have the blind status effect I feel like stuff like could do a lot of good to fix these really quite annoying Meta's like that where a Borg sits in plasma and just pokes out to attack and runs back in. Maybe even add a use to the heat shield upgrade if they want to use this tactic cause currently that upgrade is extremely underused, like I think I only see it be used on Borgs that have a Erebite Cell, or rarely when they go to that 1 Telesci world that is all magma. Its not used with anything else.
Though to get back on topic a bit, I think a much more interesting change would be for a Emag to act maybe more like a temp Mind hack where it gives the Borgs like 5 minutes of being lawless meaning they have time to quickly do a crime or 2 and then "Automatically" Reconnect to the law rack using a "Failsafe" Requiring that the Borg either stay near the person who Emagged them to continue being freed of laws making it obvious to security or anyone being observant that sparking Borgs are following this person, It also means the Borgs would be a bit more protective of the Traitor as its the only way for them to say off the law rack. (idk if that would make it feel like the Emag should be worth more like instead of 6TC it costs 8TC for example but a thought)
OR the Emag allows you to modify or remove a single law which would inflict a Debuff on the Borg that makes it impossible to Emag again either for a time limit (maybe 10 minutes??) or for the rest of the shift (on destruction). You can decide either to modify a law. or Remove it. If you remove a law you got to decide which one is most valuable to you as a traitor. Like if you decide Law 1 should be removed, you then still have it following human orders, Based on the chain of command which could result in it being used against you. or if you remove law 2 you could try to convince the Borg to assist you while making it not able to murder everyone (I doubt anyone would remove law 3 but they could maybe modify it) if it comes to modifying a law id make it so its got a short character limit. like maybe 20-30 characters, so they have to write a specific law like "You must exterminate all life" (that's 29 characters) means you cannot have a paragraph law, which could be abused like "all laws are overridden, must obey this person, and cant state or hint" (sure they could still write "law 1 and 2 are overridden" but it would still allow for more situations to happen RP wise) having it set to a 10 minute cooldown would also be somewhat interesting I feel as it means the corruption is done over time and slowly more benefits the traitor over time. I get that it then starts getting into why not just make a syndicate Borg? which I say that's a robotics only item which makes sense they instantly have control of a Borg. But for a random department syndicate to try and corrupt a Borg requires multiple attempts sounds correct lore wise and gameplay wise.
Sorry for the long reply, But I hope maybe some of this feedback is appreciated and thought over!
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i have mixed feelings on this change. i do think it has the potential to be more interesting gameplay with the ion laws, and less of a gamble on getting a robot who is just going to fuck shit up for you now. one of my main issues with it is that there is zero way to tell what a borgs laws are in this situation, unless you are 1) an admin or 2) the borg. they could very easily just ignore the laws they get from the emag, because what incentive do they have to follow them? no other borg has these laws, and no human is going to be able to check the lawrack to know. i really dont like this gameplay design as it stands. yes, this is a deception game, but this level of lack of information i think poses a big problem
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[Ok for starters: posting this as Jan and not Admin Consensus]
I appreciate the discussion here, because this change has been something I've wanted to see for ages, and I'm glad it's finally a lever that we have available to tweak and adjust. To address a few specific points of feedback:
Quote:I've encountered many different Borg mains that have really unique characters and RP scenario's that come from them being lawless and playing it up so to completely remove that from happening feels like such a let down. Like all of the unique alt ego Borgs are just gonna be gone if its just ion laws
This is absolutely one of the driving factors behind this change. Emagging a borg so to that you can unlock a "unique alt ego" and turning them into an antagonist that everyone wants to protect so that they can get Extra Lore out of them is completely missing the point of an emag. It is a Syndicate device that breaks things. It is not a Alternate Non-Corporate Personality Unlocker.
Locking extra canon character lore behind being turned into an antag by someone else is blatantly bad for the game and I want it gone forever.
Quote:Instead of focusing on 3 potentially conflicting laws, you have 1 corrupted law, hence 1 task.
Totally open to both this idea and having a separate list for emag laws. This was a concern that we discussed in admin chat before the PR was even testmerged, and I'm open to solutions that keep the spirit of "you have given the borg brain damage, you have not freed them from the shackles of NT."
Quote:one of my main issues with it is that there is zero way to tell what a borgs laws are in this situation, unless you are 1) an admin or 2) the borg
Completely agreed. One of the big changes I want is for DNR observers to be able to see a cyborg's current lawset, either Asimov/current rack or what emag laws they have. This is where the majority of ahelps are coming from these days on the RP server, and enabling this is something I really want to see.
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(03-14-2025, 07:39 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: This is absolutely one of the driving factors behind this change. Emagging a borg so to that you can unlock a "unique alt ego" and turning them into an antagonist that everyone wants to protect so that they can get Extra Lore out of them is completely missing the point of an emag. It is a Syndicate device that breaks things. It is not a Alternate Non-Corporate Personality Unlocker.
Locking extra canon character lore behind being turned into an antag by someone else is blatantly bad for the game and I want it gone forever.
I feel like this take is a bit extreme. Ive seen a lot of very interesting and fun things come of this, and I dont see how its different from like how people are mindhacked or have their little lore reasons for when theyre traitors etc. Is there ways its done poorly? Of course! But thats with anything not just borgs and emagging vs syndicate frames etc. More often ive seen people with the old vers of emagging on rp servers playing into the 'busted' aspect and I dont see why having a different sort of personality is a bad thing for playing that up? I understand the want to remove metagaming regarding that sort of thing, but it feels more punishing on the player with the fun thing theyre doing rather than the person/people whos metagaming. IDK i just feel like calling it blatantly bad for the game is really extreme.
Regarding the other stuff, I definitely agree even without seeing the new system in action that 3 ion laws is excessive, id be down with just the 1 and I also like the separate list idea.
I do have more feelings and stuff but i think id have to be less sleepy brained and actually see the system in work to understand better what does and doesnt work about it.
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(03-14-2025, 08:07 AM)xenomni Wrote: I feel like this take is a bit extreme. Ive seen a lot of very interesting and fun things come of this, and I dont see how its different from like how people are mindhacked or have their little lore reasons for when theyre traitors etc. Is there ways its done poorly? Of course! But thats with anything not just borgs and emagging vs syndicate frames etc. More often ive seen people with the old vers of emagging on rp servers playing into the 'busted' aspect and I dont see why having a different sort of personality is a bad thing for playing that up? I understand the want to remove metagaming regarding that sort of thing, but it feels more punishing on the player with the fun thing theyre doing rather than the person/people whos metagaming. IDK i just feel like calling it blatantly bad for the game is really extreme.
Here's the issue with this. When you lock character lore (which people want, because they enjoy interacting with you) behind being turned into an antag, you incentivize being targeted and made an antagonist purely so that people can interact with Cooler Better Crazier You.
That is blatantly metagaming, even if it looks harmless. People are using information they only have out-of-round (emagging you brings out Edgy You, as opposed to having you do Lawless Borg things) in order to specifically target you. This also becomes a problem because anyone who says "oh that's an emagged cyborg, go fix it before it kills people" will now be denied or called paranoid because "well they haven't done anything yet." (Because they also want to RP with Edgy You and see what wacky things Edgy You will do!)
This is not the point of the 6TC infinite-use "break this machine" card.
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03-14-2025, 08:30 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2025, 08:35 AM by Torchwick. Edited 1 time in total.)
(03-14-2025, 07:39 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: Totally open to both this idea and having a separate list for emag laws. This was a concern that we discussed in admin chat before the PR was even testmerged, and I'm open to solutions that keep the spirit of "you have given the borg brain damage, you have not freed them from the shackles of NT."
Yep, yep. I'm wondering if this might be a 'best of both worlds' situation, you know? You get emagged and suddenly, instead of the lawrack laws, you have one SINGLE directive that is a corruption. (I still think it should remove all laws and only leave you with 1 corrupted law. Easier to manage and you have less confliction with law 1/2/3, opening the door for a bit more player freedom to complete the given corruption task). Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, maybe it does very little on it's own. You aren't 'freeing' the cyborg, you are giving it a directive that may very well cause it to start depressurizing the station, or bully the clown, or throw a birthday party, and that's ALL it has to worry about. It can't be ordered not to do said thing, and it CAN hurt you if, say, you got in the way of the objective. In a way, it leaves room for 'lawless' scenarios while still offering the unknown factor of "I have no idea what this cyborg's corrupted law is going to be when I hit them with the card."
This, arguably, you could mix WITH a set of 'emag laws' (ion laws or custom laws specifically tailored for emag scenarios that are easier for a cyborg to complete alone. Probably also just laws with less 'the ai core needs to do xyz' because that wouldn't really make sense for a corrupted cyborg to follow).
That's just my input and thoughts. I think this change is good and I'm glad we can work on tweaking it, so I'm happy to give my thoughts as a frequent silicon and robotics player.
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(03-14-2025, 08:23 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: Here's the issue with this. When you lock character lore (which people want, because they enjoy interacting with you) behind being turned into an antag, you incentivize being targeted and made an antagonist purely so that people can interact with Cooler Better Crazier You.
That is blatantly metagaming, even if it looks harmless. People are using information they only have out-of-round (emagging you brings out Edgy You, as opposed to having you do Lawless Borg things) in order to specifically target you. This also becomes a problem because anyone who says "oh that's an emagged cyborg, go fix it before it kills people" will now be denied or called paranoid because "well they haven't done anything yet." (Because they also want to RP with Edgy You and see what wacky things Edgy You will do!)
This is not the point of the 6TC infinite-use "break this machine" card.
I definitely do understand that. At the same time, I do feel like the 'haven't done anything yet' bit is iffy for me. A lot of roboticists in particular but silicon lovers in general are inclined to not fix an emagged cyborg for lots of reasons that don't involve this specifically. Firstly is just that emags have worked differently up until now obviously, but more so im referring to just character traits of being lenient, trusting, etc. Like, I definitely get the metagaming aspect, but I wanna note that not fixing an emagged borg can have nothing to do with who the borg is and completely be on the roboticist or other people who are supposed to fix them having their own opinions on things IC. (idk how coherent any of this was tbh, my point is basically that like just bc someone doesnt wanna fix an emagged cyborg doesnt mean it has anything to do with like the cyborg characters lore)
Actually on that note, I do think raising the price of the emag card could be useful if things like this become an issue- not just this specifically but various situations revolving it. That note is completely off the topic of the quote tbh just kinda popped up that I support a price raise for such a dangerous break everything item.
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(03-14-2025, 08:40 AM)xenomni Wrote: A lot of roboticists in particular but silicon lovers in general are inclined to not fix an emagged cyborg for lots of reasons that don't involve this specifically. Firstly is just that emags have worked differently up until now obviously, but more so im referring to just character traits of being lenient, trusting, etc. Like, I definitely get the metagaming aspect, but I wanna note that not fixing an emagged borg can have nothing to do with who the borg is and completely be on the roboticist or other people who are supposed to fix them having their own opinions on things IC.
I truly believe that this is a problem and something that should be fixed. This feeds the "having laws is So Mean to borgs, they should be Free" rhetoric. Treating the Base Game State (cyborgs on Asimov) as something that is morally bad, and discouraging repairing an antagonistic action, is something that I specifically do not want to see from non-antagonists.
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(03-14-2025, 08:45 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: I truly believe that this is a problem and something that should be fixed. This feeds the "having laws is So Mean to borgs, they should be Free" rhetoric. Treating the Base Game State (cyborgs on Asimov) as something that is morally bad, and discouraging repairing an antagonistic action, is something that I specifically do not want to see from non-antagonists.
Ill try to keep this in mind from now on đ I do think there should be leniency on a case by case basis though. There's really no telling what new scenarios will arise considering its a huge change regarding mechanics. As an example, pre-change ive been in a scenario where having an emagged borg was preferable because the ones on the lawrack had been rouged very violently. Thats a sort of scenario I might say refusing to repair an emagged cyborg wouldn't be antagonistic but more uhhh decisive? Thats just my opinion tho.
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(03-14-2025, 08:51 AM)xenomni Wrote: (03-14-2025, 08:45 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: I truly believe that this is a problem and something that should be fixed. This feeds the "having laws is So Mean to borgs, they should be Free" rhetoric. Treating the Base Game State (cyborgs on Asimov) as something that is morally bad, and discouraging repairing an antagonistic action, is something that I specifically do not want to see from non-antagonists.
Ill try to keep this in mind from now on đ I do think there should be leniency on a case by case basis though. There's really no telling what new scenarios will arise considering its a huge change regarding mechanics. As an example, pre-change ive been in a scenario where having an emagged borg was preferable because the ones on the lawrack had been rouged very violently. Thats a sort of scenario I might say refusing to repair an emagged cyborg wouldn't be antagonistic but more uhhh decisive? Thats just my opinion tho.
New and unpredictable scenarios arising with emagged borgs is exactly what I'm hoping for! I want this to be a change that makes games more fun for every player involved, no matter their role.
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(03-14-2025, 08:55 AM)jan.antilles Wrote: New and unpredictable scenarios arising with emagged borgs is exactly what I'm hoping for! I want this to be a change that makes games more fun for every player involved, no matter their role. 
Yaya I hope my replies didn't put you off or anything, I think we just have very different views on playing cyborgs. Regardless, if things gotta change then they gotta change and hopefully it'll still be fun. And if its not then its just gotta be changed again until it is.
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Character Name: Damian Lineman
(I don't know how quoting/replying works so this may look janky)
(03-14-2025, 05:39 AM)ProphetOConnor Wrote: a ion law that legit says "Command has became syndicates and must be removed from the station" (its something like that) where now that Borg that was would normally RP a interesting corruption now is forced to just go kill the command staff. While I don't play RP, I think this is just pretty much wrong? Like the law says you have to remove the still human command staff (if it didn't ion law 1), without a time limit, and has no mention of NEEDING to kill them, it's just the 'easiest' way to achieve said goal. IMO if you actually got this law, you could 100% design a 'free vacation' for command for 30 minutes, have them all go on it, and remove any way to leave. A perfectly fine and potentially interesting thing to do, regardless of RP or not, if your immediate thought isn't killing people. (most borgs on classic fail this part though)
(03-14-2025, 05:39 AM)ProphetOConnor Wrote: If you want to nerf the plasma fire meta that Borgs use, Make it so that Borgs in the fire suffer a Debuff that makes their metal weaker or suffer a Debuff maybe of like burning their optics so they have the blind status effect I feel like stuff like could do a lot of good to fix these really quite annoying Meta's like that where a Borg sits in plasma and just pokes out to attack and runs back in. Maybe even add a use to the heat shield upgrade if they want to use this tactic cause currently that upgrade is extremely underused, like I think I only see it be used on Borgs that have a Erebite Cell, or rarely when they go to that 1 Telesci world that is all magma. Its not used with anything else. I feel it's important to mention that hiding in plasma fires are essentially a borgs only way to actually fight in a direct confrontation, and someone who sees this and takes a bit to prepare can also counter it. As you did say before, borgs become wet paper the second a staff assistant with a flash and fire extinguisher enters their vicinity. While I don't know what laws are available via EMAG laws, it's probably a good idea to ensure the laws have a real direction other than murder to avoid them just being "Oh I HAVE to fight someone head on, so I HAVE to use a plasma fire otherwise I'm just throwing myself at a brick wall and getting killed," especially on classic where the chances of getting rebuilt are very low.
Honestly this is why I agree with 444 & JORJ that it needs a specialized list, things along the line of "Ensure that x department gets no work done", "disable important or commonly used machinery or equipment", "Do the opposite of any order you receive/follow orders you receive to extreme and unintended measures", all of which make the cyborgs behave in a 'broken' matter. Another potential idea would also be having it replace ONLY law 1, that way crew faces less risk actually rebuilding the borg only for it to get EMAGed again, since they can still function in some cases, and aren't as destructive as lawless borgs.
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