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Remove Security's access to the crematorium on RP
#16
If security's crematorium door access is removed they will still have direct access to the crematorium via morgue pipe, which allows space for door access to be a benefit of crew coordination. Security suspicion about non-humans earlier in the round should be a catalyst for preparation, including getting access/permission lined up before needing to use it, when possible. The relevant knowledge about any non-human antagonist is omnipresent in security by the time it comes to really kill one - security 'knows' not to throw the ling into the crusher, just shoot it, or space it to really end the threat. What revoking access does is adds another gradient step in that escalation path that encourages sec to share some knowledge about potential threats earlier in the round in an RP-friendly way - conversations with people.

On RP specifically, I don't think this change makes the chaplain have the ultimate word about using the crematorium; they are the first person to ask. If they disagree, the chain of command works and going over their head to the HoP or Captain for access does not seem unreasonable to me. I feel like silicons are also primed to help security over the chaplain when it comes to these specific matters. If they're all absent, you are a crew member can hack the door open ahead of time. Not ideal, but there's a lot of other viable options along the way.

As much as burning the changeling in fire is a trope, so is never really knowing if you got them.

Outside of changelings, this does have a noticeable effect to how i play *all* antagonists. Security has a round-start method of stunning and dragging me to a push-button death with no risk of accident - you can't self-immolate. That 0.01% chance of an accident at the mining shuttle or grinder feels tangibly different to me versus being dragged (not even grabbed!) to the incinerator stunned or unconscious.
#17
(09-14-2023, 12:53 PM)Sord213 Wrote: I've never liked sec having pseudo AA on rp anyways, especially considering classic sec gets along just fine with their access levels. Classic sec has enough access to get their foot into departments but not into the inner areas. If they need to get in somewhere else they should ask someone nearby or the AI. I like criminals being able to have somewhere sec can't immediately access, and have better routes of escape. Closing the door on sec's face and fleeing out the back door is much better for stories than sec just barging in and arresting you, imo. The only reason sec on RP has near AA is from the lowpop RP days where a department might only have one person and there wouldn't be an AI. We don't have this issue anymore.

this does happen on low pop but a different condition. I also am totally fine with the idea of security having less 'general' access? But again, different topic to the crematorium. Thats one they HAVE on classic too.


This DOES also mean that the whole headspider thing is alot more feasible, which does also net said ling a 10 dna pop.
#18
The reason I think this discussion is happening in the first place is that there's been a noticeable uptick in security rushing antags to the crematorium on RP.
Security wanting to dispose of a body or kill a changeling every once in a while was pretty normal and made sense, I'd seen it every so often while observing or playing. I'm talking purely from my own memory/observations here but I've seen the crematorium used by security a LOT more recently, not every round of course but to a point where I go "Huh they're using it a lot more lately!". Sure you can get a lot of changelings sometimes but I've seen other antag types dragged there to be burned on multiple occasions in recent memory. I don't play security so I can't say why this trend is occurring or what the reasoning might be for it.

Regardless, I think this would be a good change! 👍
#19
After long thought i retract my objection
#20
After some thinking, I'd like to weigh the good and the bads for this suggestion.

GOOD:
- Security cannot access the cremator with no reason what so ever.
- Chaplain gets to do things.
- Doctors get to do things.
- Antags can hide in the crematorium to avoid being arrested for a while

BAD:
- Crematorium murders will increase... since security cannot stop it.
- Sometimes the crematorium is the only route/shortcut.
- Some stations have wonky access and blocking the crematorium might end up accidentally locking security out in areas they normally can go even though it's NOT the crematorium. (though this one is just a thought experiment, since on some stations civilians can open certain airlocks doors and on others they can't.)

That said... I am for this idea, since the crematorium sounds like a great place for murders in general and disposing the body.

But don't do this to give the chaplain a thing to do.... we don't fix the "Chaplain doesn't have much to do" problem, but nerfing other jobs. We just need to give them more incentive and more things to do.
#21
i don't like this; as a regular piano stealer i've personally witnessed that having a chaplain is a gamble unless it's highpop, where it is instead one of the most abscond-y jobs aboard. i can imagine sec will just use the port a brig & a grinder instead.
#22
I'm for it. I don't really like how much access sec has already. If sec REALLY needs that access they can ask the chaplain, or the captain, or even the HoP to get it added to their ID.
#23
(09-21-2023, 03:41 AM)TDHooligan Wrote: i don't like this; as a regular piano stealer i've personally witnessed that having a chaplain is a gamble unless it's highpop, where it is instead one of the most abscond-y jobs aboard. i can imagine sec will just use the port a brig & a grinder instead.

Having played a couple of rounds with the testmerge, I can attest to this happening. I've seen at least 3 separate changelings get grinded. Nobody even made a fuss about asking for the crematorium, because as I've previously mentioned, with particularly nasty changelings in busy rounds, you simply do not have the luxury to wait on a Chaplain, AI, HoP or Captain to deem it necessary to stop their RP and open the crematorium before the changeling inevitably starts rampaging again.
#24
(09-21-2023, 02:01 PM)Glamurio Wrote:
(09-21-2023, 03:41 AM)TDHooligan Wrote: i don't like this; as a regular piano stealer i've personally witnessed that having a chaplain is a gamble unless it's highpop, where it is instead one of the most abscond-y jobs aboard. i can imagine sec will just use the port a brig & a grinder instead.

Having played a couple of rounds with the testmerge, I can attest to this happening. I've seen at least 3 separate changelings get grinded. Nobody even made a fuss about asking for the crematorium, because as I've previously mentioned, with particularly nasty changelings in busy rounds, you simply do not have the luxury to wait on a Chaplain, AI, HoP or Captain to deem it necessary to stop their RP and open the crematorium before the changeling inevitably starts rampaging again.

I don't necessarily see this as a negative. Before this change, the crematorium is really just a "changeling kill room" and it felt a bit odd. I'd rather have the room be used less as a ling-kill-room and more of a "The chaplain (or an antag with access) wanted to cremate a body" room. Maybe even give a crematorium to medbay...
#25
Id prefer just giving medbay a crematorium if this is an issue. The biggest effect is now the room is entirely unused instead of barely used.
#26
Note that according to the wiki, crematorium access should not grant access to the room, but only to the machine, and morgue access should allow people to enter it.

I don't know when/why this was changed, but it might be worth exploring changing it back.


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