Remove the Armory eguns. Replace them with... stuff

[FrontlineAcrobat4]

Oh for fuck's sake.

HoSing is tough business, you have to show your toughness by fighting whenever you can. Also fuck yeah stun shotguns, lasers are fucking boring and overused.

[mozi]

Riot shields were godawful. Riot armor was nearly useless and should hopefully have more of a purpose now.
I like the idea of having stun spackers in there. Hell, I might put in something a little more interesting than flashbangs too.

tear gas that makes people puke everywhere, please

[Weavel]

I never saw the original riot shield so thats why I suggested what I did, so whatever

Tear Gas grenades that work like simple smokes; not wearing a gas mask? Vision gets blurred, start vomiting, stuns as per medical-chem addictions, does no damage

Should really be no more than about six grenades available though

[Dauntasa]

I never saw the original riot shield so thats why I suggested what I did, so whatever

Tear Gas grenades that work like simple smokes; not wearing a gas mask? Vision gets blurred, start vomiting, stuns as per medical-chem addictions, does no damage

Should really be no more than about six grenades available though

Nah, the point of tear gas is to make it so that people have to leave whatever area the gas is in. If you make them like that it's basically a gas flashbang. Make it so that teargas blurs you vision and makes you cough, but instead of stunning you make it do tiny amounts of damage while you stand in it so that you're in no real danger of dying as long as you get out quickly, but if you just stand there and huff it for a while it'll crit you.

[Weavel]

This entire thread is about removing lethal shit from Sec, you're asking for a grenade that fills a room with a lethal gas

No

I'd be OK with removing the stun if it forced you to drop items when you were hit by it

[Sundance]

I never saw the original riot shield so thats why I suggested what I did, so whatever

Ditto. I don't know why people keep critising riot shields because they were awful. Concentrate on what was suggested here and now.

And gas that makes people vomit everywhere? haha I love it, it reminds me of Minority Report.

Tear Gas grenades that work like simple smokes; not wearing a gas mask? Vision gets blurred, start vomiting, stuns as per medical-chem addictions, does no damage

Should really be no more than about six grenades available though

Agree on pretty much everything. Tear gas should not stun on gas impact, but should stun afterwards via addiction, which sounds really good if you are chasing someone. And it'd work in conjunction with the gas masks in the Armory, so that'd be a neat coincidence. Also include it in the tactical grenade kit.

Also, I am now leaning away from the HoS getting an energy rifle in his locker if it means he can get lethal bruising (non bleeding) bullets in his locker, and bullets actually do damage against rogue bots. This way, it wouldn't be so easy for a stun --> switch modes --> kill, the HoS would have to empty out his spacker before going with the intent to kill.

[Hard Boiled]

I never saw the original riot shield so thats why I suggested what I did, so whatever

Ditto. I don't know why people keep critising riot shields because they were awful. Concentrate on what was suggested here and now.

And gas that makes people vomit everywhere? haha I love it, it reminds me of Minority Report.

Tear Gas grenades that work like simple smokes; not wearing a gas mask? Vision gets blurred, start vomiting, stuns as per medical-chem addictions, does no damage

Should really be no more than about six grenades available though

Agree on pretty much everything. Tear gas should not stun on gas impact, but should stun afterwards via addiction, which sounds really good if you are chasing someone. And it'd work in conjunction with the gas masks in the Armory, so that'd be a neat coincidence. Also include it in the tactical grenade kit.

Also, I am now leaning away from the HoS getting an energy rifle in his locker if it means he can get lethal bruising (non bleeding) bullets in his locker, and bullets actually do damage against rogue bots. This way, it wouldn't be so easy for a stun --> switch modes --> kill, the HoS would have to empty out his spacker before going with the intent to kill.

Yeah, if I have to give up my shiny laser guns, I would rather have an optional box of RUBBER bullets, that cause people some brute damage and makes them drop what they are holding. I really like replacing the eguns in the Armory lockers with spackers that have two boxes inside the locker as well. One box could be the tear gas, mainly because security is not as shit nowadays, and since it's HoS accessible only, some random shitty guard won't be spamming smoke everywhere. Also, this could be a nice weapon for emag holding traitors or wiz kids as well.

Another box could be filled with beanbags and a bean bag pouch, which you could wear on the belt slot. Pop in 6 and they are reusable too. They cause a minor stun and some brute damage. A full pouch can put someone in crit, maybe?

Maybe the tear gas can be a grenade that just explodes on contact, so that is a traitor gets his hands on a spacker, he can make really deadly gas rounds. I'm not sure I understand what people are saying about stun spackers, but I assume most of you mean a base setting that shoots taser bolts? And you could just change the setting to "Load" or "Stun" or even the setting that shoots them all at once? But yeah, that is just me taking all the ideas and mashing them. I also like the idea of making riot armor a lot better, because , we HAVE IT and it's shit. Might as well make it better as in incentive to actually use them. I have only seen scientists ask for them while making bombs, but that is all.

[Captain_Bravo]

When people talk about Stun Spackers, they are saying exactly what you just described. Special security shotguns with rounds that stun people instead of killing them. They're not saying to just turn shotguns into energy guns, that would be defeating the entire purpose of the discussion.

[wabash1]

Riot shields were godawful. Riot armor was nearly useless and should hopefully have more of a purpose now.
I like the idea of having stun spackers in there. Hell, I might put in something a little more interesting than flashbangs too.

OH MAN STING GRENADES YESSSSSSS

[Cogwerks]

OH MAN STING GRENADES YESSSSSSS

That or tear gas is what I was thinking. Sting grenades would be pretty funny.

[Dauntasa]

This entire thread is about removing lethal shit from Sec, you're asking for a grenade that fills a room with a lethal gas

No

I'd be OK with removing the stun if it forced you to drop items when you were hit by it

Yeah but there's no point in having smokey flashbangs either. The point of tear gas is that nobody wants to breathe that shit in so they leave because it's making them sick as hell. But this is a videogame and nobody gives a shit if their spaceman is feeling terrible so they would be completely worthless unless they stunned people which is what flashbangs already do.

Stinger grenades could be fucking hilarious though.

[Sundance]

OH MAN STING GRENADES YESSSSSSS

That or tear gas is what I was thinking. Sting grenades would be pretty funny.

The premise of them is that it breaks up riots because of PAIN. But because pain isn't really a factor in ss13, how would they go about working?

[Shoddy]

i would assume that sting grenades would cause people to drop things from pain and perhaps down them if they stay in the area too long.

also what about wedges that disallow anyone to access a door unless a person removes it from the side it was placed, effectively like bolting a door except you don't need the AI, this is commonly used in real life SWAT teams so that suspects cant just bolt out and get away.

[Shoddy]

on top of that, why not make these gas grenades everyone is talking about actually release small amounts of gas instead of smoke that stays there for 3 seconds

[Nautilus]

Just adding all the features in SWAT 4 would invariably make security fun, given security teams can work in a semi-coordinated way (they wont)

Sundance, I appreciate that you're clinging onto the idea HoS is supposed to be Judge Dredd, but its really something that has to end. Half the discussion in this thread isn't about how to make the Head of Security less effective, but how to provide the Head of Security more tools to work with the station to disable antagonizers. In the head of security's arsenal should be everything necessary to be the top-dog rent-a-cop such as more effective stunning weapons and less ways to get away with essentially murder.

Don't go about making Marquases' opinion out as if its fringe. I and several other Head of Security players agree that the purpose of security should be of a less-lethal nature. There's plenty of reason behind it - It'd be fun for other players, it's a challenge, it ensures new players who choose security are less inclined to kill, etc. What we're proposing is ending the gap between security guard and head of security when it comes down to the ability to resort to lethal force.

Have you played as a regular security officer recently or regularly? It's easy to take for granted what is basically given to you as a HoS. A security officer has no methods of access, nor weapons to deal with changelings or vampires. A Head of Security is in comparison a walking armory who can dispatch changelings and vampires as if it weren't a problem whatsoever, so long as you manage to identify them. This is where things become unfun - where 3 lasers to the chest ends a person's game as an antagonist. I do it myself, but that's because it's my best chance of survival in those cases. I have the tool and I will use it, but as a security officer you have to rely on your buddies responding and you effectively give time for the antagonist to escape. That's a good thing, Sundance - it's more fun.

The fact you outright declared that you need to have an e-gun is a spit in the face to everyone trying to make security more fun. It has become your agenda, be it even subconscious, to give yourself an advantage over everybody on the station just because you filled in an application. That line of thinking is horrid and it perverts the mission of the Head of Security role.

We're also criticizing features that were terrible because they changed not just what security had, but the entiriety of security culture. The moment riot shields came in, security officers became that much more effective at disabling the entire crew. The culture of security changed and they would enforce curfews, stunng people in the hallways who dared to leave their workplace or smash a glass. At one point, it was possible to stun people with the baton simply back walking towards them. Did it make security more fun? Did it make playing the game as any other role more fun? Why would we ever need these features again, given their history?

Tear gas can legit be useful, so long as the intent is for people to vacate a room rather than to damage them. Fuzzing up their eyesight and making them puke would be cool and might be useful in a riot situation. However, flashbangs are also legit useful and I think both options should be available.