Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it!

[Ed Venture]

To be fair Zewaka made the poll on my request not Grayshift. I wanted it to see what the community wanted to be done but it's made clear no change is coming so we all wasted our time.

[Grayshift]

I'll let ZeWaka know. :V

[Mordent]

Effort post incoming.

As a lone Security officer who has to deal with everything under the sun. Be it from boredom or a rampaging antag my number one goal as a officer has been the safety of the crew. The thing I saved people from the most before this change was exposed parts of the station caused by explosions. This is now a death sentence to try with this change as the slow down stacks with the cool down that space gives to the player. This was manageable before Winter Coats got nerfed (I get why they were nerfed don't worry)

This is a problem not exclusive to security officers. This problem (which I'll refer to as the "high-risk" problem) has plenty of solutions/ways to help mitigate it, as I've pointed out in previous posts and will repost a bunch of here. There is also a greater chance of them dying due to prolonged exposure to the depressurised area (which I'll refer to as the "lethality" problem). Note that I am comparing these problems to pre-drag-nerf levels.

• Acquire cold-proof gear (space suit of various levels) to completely remove the "high-risk" problem.
  
• Acquire cold-resistant gear (winter coats, assorted emergency gear, assorted hats) to mitigate the "death sentence" problem.
  
• Get a cyborg to do it to remove the "high-risk" and mitigate the "lethality" problems (as getting the cyborg there takes time so it isn't a perfect mitigation).
  
• Have your legs replaced with cyborg treads to increase your movement speed to mitigate both problems.
  
• Get either Musculature Enhancement or Gamma Ray Exposure genetics, to remove both problems.
  
• Get Cold Resistance genetics, to remove the "high-risk" problem (assuming internals).
  
• Acquire assorted temperature regulating chems to mitigate the "high-risk" problem, or apply them to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem.
  
• Acquire assorted movement-speed increasing chems to mitigate both problems (reduces both your and their exposure).
  
• Use the Port-a-Med if available to mitigate the "lethality" problem (and partially the "high-risk" problem).
  
• Use the Port-a-Brig if available (as per Port-a-Med, but destination is not ideal for treating them - consider stuffing them in, recalling, getting to medbay, then calling them there).
  
• Use the Port-a-Sci if available (as per the Port-a-Med, usefulness of destination varies from map-to-map but it's decent on Cogmap2 as you're right by medbay).
  
• Use hand teleporters if available to mitigate the "lethality" problem (and partially the "high-risk" problem).
  
• Apply burn patches to self to mitigate the "high-risk" problem.
  
• Apply burn patches to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem.
  
• Apply cryoxadone to victim and push the ice cube to mitigate both problems (reduces exposure for both parties).
  
• Apply omnizine to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem (good approach in general, if you were doing this previously the problem is not mitigated).
  
• Consider carrying spare emergency equipment to drop for walking-wounded to pick up and use to mitigate "lethality" problem.
  
• Stuff the victim into a nearby crate or locker and push that out of the area to mitigate both problems.
  

These are all approaches I've used to varying degrees of success since the change, and no doubt there are others. I can certainly agree that it is harder. I enjoy the challenge involved in being an effective paramedic - previously it was just "drag them to medbay, maybe stick a few patches or some epi in them on the way, treat when you get there".

Brigging people has always been a issue being that someone will run up and whisk away them at lightning speed. This is no longer an issue. But as grayshift will try and tell you it's a blessing and I thought it was to at first. He fails to see this just made those people change it up and they will just now chase you while you are slowed down and beat the shit out of you and steal your stuff. So you got two choices. Either stand you ground and hope they don't disarm you and try and stun all the attackers fast or let the person you arrest go and make a run for it. The port-a-brig is nice but it is hardly a solution to this long standing issue which I feel is far worse now then it's ever been. The Port-a-brig takes seconds to get out and a couple more seconds to put the person in and lock it and send it away. A lot can happen in those seconds. It's not the solution to this issue it's a band-aid. Frankly either the change needs to be reverted, Noah's patch replaces it or Security is given more leeway to kill these people without having to send really long adminhelps each step of the way.

---

Noah I don't see how I'm not being consistent. I've always said in this thread that I love the thing and that I use it but it barely helps in the grand scheme of things. I've voiced that countless times in this thread.

Firstly, use of the Port-a-Brig for single offenders is still the de facto way of getting them to security quickly and with minimal interference. If you don't have your PDA open already so you can call it at the click of a button then the problem is in your execution, not the tools. If you're dragging single offenders to the brig manually and you're being messed with, that's on you.

In the case of multiple offenders, or being unable to determine who is the victim and who is the attacker in the case of an assault (it is rather common), I would agree that as a lone security officer you're going to have your work cut out for you. Consider using any of the drag-speed improving approaches (treads, genetics, order a cyborg to do it, use movement-speed increasing chems), call for backup (agreed, as a single sec officer this isn't an option), or consider detaining them in other ways (stuff them into a locker/crate, lock/weld it, then go get the first guy out of the Port-a-Brig and use the Port-a-Brig on the other person; stick them in a security checkpoint if one is nearby).

I've also had great success in sticking them in a crate/locker and locking/welding that and pushing that instead of dragging them. Bonus: you can stick multiple people into one locker and deal with it when you get to the brig.

On the topic of "people mess with me while I'm dragging someone": don't arrest for pointless stuff but just stun them and hand them a fine. I've defused numerous petty greytide fights by separating them by a small degree. Your presence alone is a deterrent against them exacerbating things. If it doesn't work, spend a moment to work out who the main offender is and arrest just them. If the others continue to be general shits and keep trying to kill them while you're dragging them to the brig, stun the person being a shit, then use that time to Port-a-Brig the first person.

I don't play security all that often, so am not going to claim that you don't know how to do your thing best, but if this is as constant of a problem for you as you seem to be making it then I'd consider it more of an issue with how people treat specifically you/your approach. To rule out the former, play as a randomly-named and different appearance officer for a few shifts, see if the behaviour continues. If yes, it's your approach. If not, it's because it's you that they get to mess with.

-----

Regarding people feeling cheated that "the poll says this, you have to do it": get stuffed. If you want to get semantic about it, more people are for not reverting it than they are for keeping it to some degree. Polls don't work for this sort of thing (not only because of the inherent "people who hate something are more vocal/likely to complain"), but also because with any poll that isn't overwhelmingly in favour of one result (38% is not overwhelming, to nip that one in the bud) can be read any number of ways to fit whatever narrative you want).

[Grayshift]

Borrowed an idea from Haine. Container pull speed now vaguely related to its contents. I could get more in depth with it but barring a proper mass/encumbrance system it's just be guessing with some complicated maths.

[Frank_Stein]

Thank you, Mordent. My sentiments exactly, and what I was getting at earlier, regarding security de-escalation methods.

[Superlagg]

Turn the portabrig into a locker that stuns everyone inside when it's opened. You have to weld it shut each time though.

[Ed Venture]

I don't play security all that often, so am not going to claim that you don't know how to do your thing best, but if this is as constant of a problem for you as you seem to be making it then I'd consider it more of an issue with how people treat specifically you/your approach. To rule out the former, play as a randomly-named and different appearance officer for a few shifts, see if the behaviour continues. If yes, it's your approach. If not, it's because it's you that they get to mess with.

To clear things up I just want to say I never said how much this happens to me but it's just things that have happened to me on a few rounds or I've noticed while just ghosting around. Much like how I predicted this changed would lead to more people ignoring dead bodies and then started seeing just that and having people then report it in this thread.

I appreciate the rest of your tips. But don't appreciate how my behavior as a officer is getting called into question without being observed or having you play with me. Again I say I am harsh on something but the road to the harsh punishment is me being super nice. Like the time I caught a traitor who was just trying to learn how to do things with the engine and how my instincts were screaming "KILL HIM NOW" I sat down and made a deal with him where the AI would not watch him if he gave me his unlocked PDA. He agreed and later me leaving him alive really backfired in my face, but that's not the point. It seems it's hard to believe that I am super nice till a certain point but easy to believe I am a no fun hardass all the time and that is the reason for all my issues with security. Which is not true at all.

[Lady Birb]

I made a bug report thread about criminals being able to remove handcuffs while inside the portabrig since so many people seem to be upset about it.

[Noah Buttes]

I'm going to warn you now, grayshift.

Do not read any further if you don't have exceptionally thick skin. I have very strong feelings on this subject, and I did not pull any punches when writing this thing.

I don't think any major changes are coming, no. If there are any specific items that could stand to be tinkered, continue to post them in this thread.

I'm disappointed in your decision.

Quick Summary
The pull speed changes can largely be summed up into different categories.

All of which can be easily grouped into one category: awful.

Items you can pick up have a very minor pull speed decrease. This is because you can just fucking pick them up if you want to move full speed, and is there because why not? [emphasis added] Probably only relevant in cases of pulling things around that you can step on, like banana peels and plasma shards.

"because why not"

A better question is WHY? What purpose does this serve? It doesn't accomplish anything besides being mildly aggravating to people. It doesn't accomplish any of your stated objectives at all. It doesn't encourage usage of alternative shipping methods and it certainly doesn't help with stun-and-snatch kidnappings. There are several situations where you WANT to pull things you can otherwise pick up. Examples: Ouija boards, radioactive materials, cardboard boxes, paper trays, and bibles.

There is no reason to keep this in and I am legitimately surprised you're trying to defend this at all.

Humans/mobs are moderately slow, varying on whether the other person is on their feet or dead weight. This stops drive by kidnappings, stunning and pulling a person away at light speed. The port-a-med was reintroduced to help get people to medbay quicker.

This is the only one that I feel is somewhat justified. I don't like it at all, and I think the buttes-wire patch is a better solution, but I at least see the reasoning behind it.

That having been said, I'd rather deal with drive-by kidnappings and not have this slow drag speed. Y'know why? Because they still happen, just at a slower speed. There's still absolutely nothing you can do about snatch-and-grab style abductions unless a bystander happens to be nearby. Even IF someone is in the vicinity, you're still fucked. The person who just stunned you is just gonna stun that witness too and kill you on the spot rather than dragging you off.

My vote on this one is "remove or replace with buttes-wire."

Crates and lockers have a severe slow. They need to be slow enough to make using the station transport options attractive for mass delivery of items. There are a lot of ways to deal with this. You can already spend stamina to sprint while pulling. You can push them. Pods. Cargo transporters. Belt hell. Mail system. Cargo tugs. Forklifts. Mulebots. Order a cyborg to do it. Get hulk or musculature enhancement from genetics. Of special note are the wheeled carts (medical, breach repair, forensic, janitor, etc) which are quicker than the regular crates, to get those supplies where they need to be in quick order.

Oh BOY, here we go. This is the meat and potatoes of the issue. First off, let me start by saying this:

FUCK THIS CHANGE. IT IS THE ANTI-FUN INCARNATE.

Okay, now that I have that off my chest, it's time to be a bit more reasonable. While I understand the desire to make the other delivery options viable, they're just too goddamn inconvenient to use. In the time it takes me to go get a forklift and come back, I could've delivered the crate myself. Belt hell is unreliable, slow, and out of the way. The cargo tugs are an inefficient gimmick and always will be unless they get a substantial speed boost from where they are now. The mail system doesn't fucking work for crates and is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Pods don't work because they can only go to designated docking bays and airlocks that are all pretty out of the way. Mulebots are still too slow because they keep pausing so much. Cyborgs are few and far between nowadays, but I'm willing to admit that using them is a valid strategy. Hulk and musculature enhancement take too much goddamn time for a single crate delivery, and that's IF you can get the geneticists to listen to you. Cargo transporters are the only viable option, but they only go to places that already have a pad built. If I want to ship a load of crayons and candles to the chapel, I have to drag the damn crate ALL THE WAY OVER THERE.

Fuck this change.

FUCK THIS CHANGE.

FUCK IT SO MUCH.

Not to mention that not a single ONE of those methods mentioned, besides the incredibly impractical genetics route, actually impacts the biggest gripe area: short-distance movement within your own department. I'm not getting a fucking forklift just to drag some crates around the robotics lab. I AM, however, going to be very goddamn nettled while moving it by hand because it really shouldn't be so FUCKING slow.

I'm once again going to advocate either complete removal or the implementation of the buttes-wire patch since that makes movement over short distances bearable whilst still encouraging alternate delivery over long distances.

Other items that you can't pick up are the ones that are primarily still needing tinkering, so keep posting them here. The hovering gear (port-a-med, port-a-nanomed), stuff with wheels (nuclear bomb, rollerbeds, mop bucket), scrubbers and meteor shields (important to be able to get safety equipment to places fast) have all been sped up from the default for reasons of intuitiveness or gameplay considerations.

"items that you can't pick up are the ones that are primarily still needing tinkering"

No, the whole fucking THING needs a good dose of "tinkering."

Items you can pick up and human pulling speeds aren't changing. Other non-crate/locker stuff is what this thread was made to receive feedback on so we can tinker the items we forgot or missed. Standard crates and lockers need to be at least as slow as pulling humans to keep them from permitting drive-by kidnappings again.

Holy shit, this one bit infuriates me so much I have to break it down into individual parts.

Items you can pick up [snip] aren't changing.

??
This reeks of an inability to admit mistakes.

human pulling speeds aren't changing

This is much more understandable, but still terrible.

Other non-crate/locker stuff is what this thread was made to receive feedback on so we can tinker the items we forgot or missed.

You're doubling back on your decision to open this thread to general feedback on the change:

Edit: Since this is invariably going to devolve into general discussion on the change, I'll just open it up to that, but if you do have something that needs adjusting, bold it so I don't miss it in the mire. Thanks!

You invited this upon yourself.

Standard crates and lockers need to be at least as slow as pulling humans to keep them from permitting drive-by kidnappings again.

No they don't.
Drive-by kidnappings are a pain because you can't DO anything about them. The rapidity with which they happen has nothing to do with this.
If you want to reduce player frustration at being blindsided with a stun baton, give us ways to fight back even when stunned.

---

Now, for the next post:

I don't know where you got the idea this was even targeted at helping the role of security? It's a thing that cuts both ways, except sec has the portabrig to teleport people so they sidestep the issue mostly.

I also stated I don't think polls are appropriate (especially self-selected sampling) for a thing that is likely to be regarded negatively as it is a nerf, even if it is good for the game. Stopping driveby kidnappings is good. Having the various transport systems be relevant is good. Addition of a minor challenge/inconvenience is acceptable.

As for backlash, it's been lower than we guessed. Got out the riot gear and everything...

I'm gonna break this up into parts once again.

I don't know where you got the idea this was even targeted at helping the role of security? It's a thing that cuts both ways, except sec has the portabrig to teleport people so they sidestep the issue mostly.

In all honesty, security is probably the job that's been least negatively impacted by this, if only because so goddamn few people play it. No, the port-a-brig is actually pretty good, and security has some pretty good tools for handling sticky situations.

Security is Ed's hill, and I'm going to let him die on it.

I also stated I don't think polls are appropriate (especially self-selected sampling) for a thing that is likely to be regarded negatively as it is a nerf, even if it is good for the game.

?FUCK YOU!?

The WHOLE FUCKING POINT of a poll to provide you with a quantifiable form of feedback. Even if the poll Zewaka made was flawed from a statistical point of view, the conclusion to either revert the change or implement the buttes-wire patch is backed up by the significantly more rigorous community made poll: http://www.strawpoll.me/12552816/r

Since it's an approval poll, the top choice is the choice that is the most agreeable to the most people.

Just outright dismissing it is incredibly childish and authoritarian. I'll say it again:

?FUCK YOU!?

Stopping driveby kidnappings is good. Having the various transport systems be relevant is good.

Yes to both, but this change accomplishes NEITHER.

Addition of a minor challenge/inconvenience is acceptable.

Here, let me fix that for you:

Addition of a major headache/inconvenience is unacceptable.

There, now it's much more accurate.

As for backlash, it's been lower than we guessed. Got out the riot gear and everything...

Because we all thought you guys would be sensible and listen to well-reasoned arguments and talking points, and get rid of this absurdly terrible idea within a couple of weeks at most.

---

Alright, next post:

Pushing crates has been left in purposefully exactly for that reason. If you don't want to use the systems and babysit your cargo all the way to destination, go ahead. It's not full speed and it suffers going around corners or through doors.

But I guess the port-a-sec "not being enough" is just where we disagree, Ed. I love the dang thing and think it's great.

Gonna let Ed die on that port-a-brig hill.

Yeah, I agree on leaving pushing in, but it's not a substitute for pulling. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PLAY FUCKING SOKOBAN TO GET MY CRATE TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STATION.

---

Awww yeah, next post. Moving along, hoo-boy.

Alright, how did you arrest multiple people at once before the pull change then? Only being able to detain one person, or two if you stick one in the portabrig, has always been a limitation of security, not something this change created.

By the way, the patch idea already exists natively. You can sprint to go faster and spend stamina to speed up pulling. Not a huge boost in speed, but since it spends stamina in a per-tile basis rather than per tick, you can go a decent distance, the same you can sprint while not pulling.

Gonna break it down into two bits.

Alright, how did you arrest multiple people at once before the pull change then? Only being able to detain one person, or two if you stick one in the portabrig, has always been a limitation of security, not something this change created.

Once again, I'm letting Ed die alone on this hill.

By the way, the patch idea already exists natively. You can sprint to go faster and spend stamina to speed up pulling. Not a huge boost in speed, but since it spends stamina in a per-tile basis rather than per tick, you can go a decent distance, the same you can sprint while not pulling.

No, it fucking DOESN'T! Do you HONESTLY think I'd be so fucking DENSE as to suggest something that already existed or to believe what you just said? Sprinting with a crate is still intolerably slow, it doesn't address the main point that there shouldn't BE any slowdown at ALL, let alone over short distances.

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT attempt to pass off the shitty sprinting speed boost as fitting my idea of the "patch."

---

Alright, next post! Making progress here, woo.

So what I'm hearing is you want driveby kidnappings back, but only when a sec officer is doing it to take someone to the brig!

Sorry, that was snarky, but I was annoyed by the implication that I haven't been following this thread.

But no, bringing back lightspeed kidnappings is not an acceptable trade for "sometimes sec officers get bumped or harassed when they're arresting two people at once."

Yep, you guessed it, breaking it up, AGAIN.

So what I'm hearing is you want driveby kidnappings back, but only when a sec officer is doing it to take someone to the brig!

Sorry, that was snarky, but I was annoyed by the implication that I haven't been following this thread.

You're right, that was incredibly snarky!

However, my real issue with what you just said is this little gem: "but I was annoyed by the implication that I haven't been following this thread."

It's clear that you HAVE been following this thread, but you just don't give a shit about anything we've said.

But no, bringing back lightspeed kidnappings is not an acceptable trade for "sometimes sec officers get bumped or harassed when they're arresting two people at once."

Way to pull a strawman!

Lightspeed kidnappings are definitely an acceptable trade-off for having to endure THIS FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS OF AN UPDATE. HOLY SHIT.

---

Woo, still going. I dread reaching Mordent's effortpost, because hoo boy am I going to have dissect that thing.

So we can take revert off the table, cool.

I have read the thread, not reread or memorized it. Twenty pages is too much to remember and why I only post rarely.

But if we were almost at the sweet spot in your opinion even before the variable slower lying down/quicker standing up pull speed for mobs was implemented, then I can't see how any "vast changes" could possibly be necessary.

Holy shit, man. Everything in here just oozes with thinly veiled condescension. If you're going to be an asshole, at least be open about it.

Not going to bother breaking this one up because I really don't need to.

Do NOT assume that reversion can be taken off the table. As I said before, Ed is by no means an articulate person nor does he represent the interests of everyone involved.

Twenty pages is too much to remember in exact detail, but it's certainly enough to remember the general gist of "we hate this piece of shit."

That last piece of crap you just spewed is so incredibly patronizing that it makes my skin crawl. Absolutely nothing he just said could be reasonably inferred by any disinterested third party to mean anything remotely like what you just said. Fuck you.

---

Oh God, we're really approaching that effortpost now. gulp

I did not make any polls.

Actually, I've just had an idea how to maybe speed up lockers/crates without re-enabling the bad behavior. Hmm.

As Babayetu said, do not go playing that card now. Don't go trying to pass the blame buck onto Zewaka or anybody else. YOU made this update and YOU asked for feedback. Do not try to weasel your way out of this when the quantifiable feedback from the polls tells you that we don't like your update.

I'm not dealing with the second part yet since you made a later post that's more specific.

---

Oh god, one more before the Mordent apocalypse. May Neptune preserve me.

I'll let ZeWaka know. :V

Okay, it's good to know that at least you're not a complete asshole.

---

OH GOD, HERE IT IS.

Effort post incoming.

Mother of God.

As a lone Security officer who has to deal with everything under the sun. Be it from boredom or a rampaging antag my number one goal as a officer has been the safety of the crew. The thing I saved people from the most before this change was exposed parts of the station caused by explosions. This is now a death sentence to try with this change as the slow down stacks with the cool down that space gives to the player. This was manageable before Winter Coats got nerfed (I get why they were nerfed don't worry)

This is a problem not exclusive to security officers. This problem (which I'll refer to as the "high-risk" problem) has plenty of solutions/ways to help mitigate it, as I've pointed out in previous posts and will repost a bunch of here. There is also a greater chance of them dying due to prolonged exposure to the depressurised area (which I'll refer to as the "lethality" problem). Note that I am comparing these problems to pre-drag-nerf levels.

"Note that I am comparing these problems to pre-drag-nerf levels."
You say that, and yet you then immediately start to discuss things that were applicable both before and after the nerf. This is a really shitty way to pad your list, and I'm going to put a middle finger next to each instance of this.

• Acquire cold-proof gear (space suit of various levels) to completely remove the "high-risk" problem.?
  
• Acquire cold-resistant gear (winter coats, assorted emergency gear, assorted hats) to mitigate the "death sentence" problem.?
  
• Get a cyborg to do it to remove the "high-risk" and mitigate the "lethality" problems (as getting the cyborg there takes time so it isn't a perfect mitigation). [Actually somewhat valid, but completely pointless since cyborgs are so rare nowadays.]
  
• Have your legs replaced with cyborg treads to increase your movement speed to mitigate both problems.?
  
• Get either Musculature Enhancement or Gamma Ray Exposure genetics, to remove both problems.[Valid, but pointless due to extreme inconvenience and limited availability of genetics and the asshat behavior of geneticists.]
  
• Get Cold Resistance genetics, to remove the "high-risk" problem (assuming internals).?
  
• Acquire assorted temperature regulating chems to mitigate the "high-risk" problem, or apply them to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem.?
  
• Acquire assorted movement-speed increasing chems to mitigate both problems (reduces both your and their exposure).?
  
• Use the Port-a-Med if available to mitigate the "lethality" problem (and partially the "high-risk" problem).[Technically should be a ? since the Port-A-Med used to exist before this change as well, but I'll give you a pass]
  
• Use the Port-a-Brig if available (as per Port-a-Med, but destination is not ideal for treating them - consider stuffing them in, recalling, getting to medbay, then calling them there).?
  
• Use the Port-a-Sci if available (as per the Port-a-Med, usefulness of destination varies from map-to-map but it's decent on Cogmap2 as you're right by medbay).?
  
• Use hand teleporters if available to mitigate the "lethality" problem (and partially the "high-risk" problem).?
  
• Apply burn patches to self to mitigate the "high-risk" problem.?
  
• Apply burn patches to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem.?
  
• Apply cryoxadone to victim and push the ice cube to mitigate both problems (reduces exposure for both parties).?
  
• Apply omnizine to victim to mitigate the "lethality" problem (good approach in general, if you were doing this previously the problem is not mitigated).?
  
• Consider carrying spare emergency equipment to drop for walking-wounded to pick up and use to mitigate "lethality" problem.?
  
• Stuff the victim into a nearby crate or locker and push that out of the area to mitigate both problems. ???? [Not only not valid, but it's actually WORSE now than it used to be! Use a LOCKER or CRATE to get people out. Do you see the point I'm making here?
  

So yeah, most of your points were just as true before the change as after. Sure, there may be some slight difference now, but in general, it just all around SUCKS to deal with breaches in general, and it sucks EVEN MORE when you have to pull someone out thanks to this godawful change.

These are all approaches I've used to varying degrees of success since the change, and no doubt there are others. I can certainly agree that it is harder. I enjoy the challenge involved in being an effective paramedic - previously it was just "drag them to medbay, maybe stick a few patches or some epi in them on the way, treat when you get there".

If by challenge you mean incredibly frustrating and tedious exercise in not-dying to the vacuum of space, then yeah, it's a challenge alright. I used to love being a paramedic, but this change has turned me into a bitter and cynical old man who just lets people die before cloning them.

Brigging people has always been a issue being that someone will run up and whisk away them at lightning speed. This is no longer an issue. But as grayshift will try and tell you it's a blessing and I thought it was to at first. He fails to see this just made those people change it up and they will just now chase you while you are slowed down and beat the shit out of you and steal your stuff. So you got two choices. Either stand you ground and hope they don't disarm you and try and stun all the attackers fast or let the person you arrest go and make a run for it. The port-a-brig is nice but it is hardly a solution to this long standing issue which I feel is far worse now then it's ever been. The Port-a-brig takes seconds to get out and a couple more seconds to put the person in and lock it and send it away. A lot can happen in those seconds. It's not the solution to this issue it's a band-aid. Frankly either the change needs to be reverted, Noah's patch replaces it or Security is given more leeway to kill these people without having to send really long adminhelps each step of the way.

---

Noah I don't see how I'm not being consistent. I've always said in this thread that I love the thing and that I use it but it barely helps in the grand scheme of things. I've voiced that countless times in this thread.

Firstly, use of the Port-a-Brig for single offenders is still the de facto way of getting them to security quickly and with minimal interference. If you don't have your PDA open already so you can call it at the click of a button then the problem is in your execution, not the tools. If you're dragging single offenders to the brig manually and you're being messed with, that's on you.

In the case of multiple offenders, or being unable to determine who is the victim and who is the attacker in the case of an assault (it is rather common), I would agree that as a lone security officer you're going to have your work cut out for you. Consider using any of the drag-speed improving approaches (treads, genetics, order a cyborg to do it, use movement-speed increasing chems), call for backup (agreed, as a single sec officer this isn't an option), or consider detaining them in other ways (stuff them into a locker/crate, lock/weld it, then go get the first guy out of the Port-a-Brig and use the Port-a-Brig on the other person; stick them in a security checkpoint if one is nearby).

I've also had great success in sticking them in a crate/locker and locking/welding that and pushing that instead of dragging them. Bonus: you can stick multiple people into one locker and deal with it when you get to the brig.

On the topic of "people mess with me while I'm dragging someone": don't arrest for pointless stuff but just stun them and hand them a fine. I've defused numerous petty greytide fights by separating them by a small degree. Your presence alone is a deterrent against them exacerbating things. If it doesn't work, spend a moment to work out who the main offender is and arrest just them. If the others continue to be general shits and keep trying to kill them while you're dragging them to the brig, stun the person being a shit, then use that time to Port-a-Brig the first person.

I don't play security all that often, so am not going to claim that you don't know how to do your thing best, but if this is as constant of a problem for you as you seem to be making it then I'd consider it more of an issue with how people treat specifically you/your approach. To rule out the former, play as a randomly-named and different appearance officer for a few shifts, see if the behaviour continues. If yes, it's your approach. If not, it's because it's you that they get to mess with.

I am going to let Ed die on that security hill if it's the last thing I do.

However, I am going to call you out on a couple things.

"I've also had great success in sticking them in a crate/locker and locking/welding that and pushing that instead of dragging them."

Haha yeah, because you actually managed to drag a crate to the site of the perp right?

I'm not doubting that it's effective it's just that I could teleport them with the port-a-brig, release them, search them, and brig them, before I could drag a crate to them.

"Consider using any of the drag-speed improving approaches (treads, genetics, order a cyborg to do it, use movement-speed increasing chems)"

Almost all of those are incredibly impractical except for the drugs and possibly the treads if robotics feels like existing that day.

I'm all for encouraging people to eat more drugs, but this is definitely the wrong way to go about it.

Regarding people feeling cheated that "the poll says this, you have to do it": get stuffed. If you want to get semantic about it, more people are for not reverting it than they are for keeping it to some degree. Polls don't work for this sort of thing (not only because of the inherent "people who hate something are more vocal/likely to complain"), but also because with any poll that isn't overwhelmingly in favour of one result (38% is not overwhelming, to nip that one in the bud) can be read any number of ways to fit whatever narrative you want).

?FUCK YOU!?
?FUCK YOU!?
?FUCK YOU!?

THAT'S NOT HOW A FUCKING POLL WORKS.

Even if we're limiting ourselves to the limited FPTP poll that Zewaka attached to this thread, the combined votes for reversion, significant reduction of penalties for EVERYTHING, and significant reduction of penalties for ALMOST everything total about 77% of the vote. That's a large majority that support SIGNIFICANT change to this, with a plurality of that majority supporting complete reversion.

If we go to the more statistically reliable poll, then we can't just make-up narratives: http://www.strawpoll.me/12552816/r

The best choice is reversion, followed closely by the buttes-wire patch. Since you could vote for however many options you wanted to, that means that TWICE the number of people support reversion as support keeping it relatively the same.

Do not try to fuck with the statistics.

Once more for good measure:
?FUCK YOU!?

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Alright, last one, finally.

Borrowed an idea from Haine. Container pull speed now vaguely related to its contents. I could get more in depth with it but barring a proper mass/encumbrance system it's just be guessing with some complicated maths.

It's a clever idea, but it's not enough unfortunately.

The idea as a whole should've been aborted the moment everyone started chiming in with HOW GODDAMN AWFUL THIS FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT IS.

Do not let your sentimentality get the better of you.
Scrap it now.
Do not delay.

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It breaks my heart to have to use such language because I genuinely love and respect both this game and the administrative team behind it. I've only done so because I fear that it's the only way I can get through to you. I'm incredibly passionate about this game because I've played it for over a third of life. It's been there through good times and bad. More importantly, you guys have been there to cheer me up when I was feeling blue or to take me down a peg when I got full of myself. I, in the fullest sense of the word, owe my life to this game.

That's why this change has been weighing so heavily on me and why it's been weighing so heavily on all of us. Deep down inside, we all care deeply about this farty spaceman simulator, whether we want to admit it or not. We're family.

Please, I beg of you, remove this update before we bleed any more players than we already have.

I have never even contemplated moving codebases before this update, but the temptation is growing stronger now by the day.

If you don't hear from me again, mourn for me, but don't be surprised.

[awfulworldkid]

Honestly, I think Noah has the right idea on a lot of those things, and I don't even support a revert. Use the fucking poll, and stop fucking bringing up solutions from before the change.

[Noah Buttes]

I just want to say again how much this community means to me. You guys have quite literally saved my life on more than one occasion.

I really don't know what I'd have done without you.

[Mordent]

I'm not going to rise to most of this, but I'd really like to state one thing because it's somewhat the meat of my main reasons for not minding the change, namely the ways to help against it. The bullet-list you discarded is very strongly relevant. One of Ed's main points was that getting people to safety from a breach is now a death sentence because the slow drag speed means you die too. Anything that helps you not succumb to the cold of space is definitely relevant to helping mitigate the problems involved (any of the points noted "high-risk"), and doubly so now that dragging people slows you down (so you're exposed to it longer). If you didn't get that as a takeaway from my point, my bad.

Regarding the crate/locker point, I was talking about using those at/near the scene, not dragging one with me. There are lockers all over.

[Noah Buttes]

I'm not going to rise to most of this, but I'd really like to state one thing because it's somewhat the meat of my main reasons for not minding the change, namely the ways to help against it. The bullet-list you discarded is very strongly relevant. One of Ed's main points was that getting people to safety from a breach is now a death sentence because the slow drag speed means you die too. Anything that helps you not succumb to the cold of space is definitely relevant to helping mitigate the problems involved (any of the points noted "high-risk"), and doubly so now that dragging people slows you down (so you're exposed to it longer). If you didn't get that as a takeaway from my point, my bad.

Regarding the crate/locker point, I was talking about using those at/near the scene, not dragging one with me. There are lockers all over.

The point is that you faced those same conditions before the change as you do now. It's just worse now.

Only things that have an explicitly different effect should be considered.

[Mordent]

I'm not going to rise to most of this, but I'd really like to state one thing because it's somewhat the meat of my main reasons for not minding the change, namely the ways to help against it. The bullet-list you discarded is very strongly relevant. One of Ed's main points was that getting people to safety from a breach is now a death sentence because the slow drag speed means you die too. Anything that helps you not succumb to the cold of space is definitely relevant to helping mitigate the problems involved (any of the points noted "high-risk"), and doubly so now that dragging people slows you down (so you're exposed to it longer). If you didn't get that as a takeaway from my point, my bad.

Regarding the crate/locker point, I was talking about using those at/near the scene, not dragging one with me. There are lockers all over.

The point is that you faced those same conditions before the change as you do now. It's just worse now.

Only things that have an explicitly different effect should be considered.

Things are different. Before, you could get away without internals/cold protection and run in to grab someone and get them out pretty quick - sure, there'd be some cold slowdown and you'd take some burn damage, but not enough to be a real problem. Now, some level of preparation is pretty much required if you want to do it without serious risk to yourself, hence my list of things that show there are plenty of ways of dealing with/mitigating the more extreme issue that presents itself.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth regarding this, though, as it's something you obviously hold a very strong opinion over. We both agree that getting people out of depressurised areas is much harder in general - or, at least, requires more preparation - and comes with more risk and more chance that the person in there is going to die due to prolonged exposure. This, combined with the whole "getting people to the brig" are the main points that Ed had issue with. I hoped to illustrate that the first of these wasn't so bad if you were prepared for it and that there are plenty of ways to do so. I will concede that this mostly boils down to "depressurised rooms are a pain, this makes them more so". I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, which is where our opinion differs.

The poll thing I still feel somewhat strongly on. No suggestion was made that the poll results would guarantee changes. At best, it's a way to roughly gauge opinions on the change. If we want to go with using the strawpoll as determining the way to go, 79% of people would not be okay with the thing being reverted outright. That's kind of my point with the poll: it hasn't given you actionable information. If you want to argue "it's still the way to make the most people happy, as any other options has less of a percentage", 42% are for "reduce the penalties to some degree". 19% are for "keep things exactly the same or with minor tweaks". I agree that you can't just add numbers together in the strawpoll because each player could vote in more than one category, but we don't have enough information to go on by virtue of how the poll worked. Ask any good statistician, the data is mostly meaningless/unactionable.

[Noah Buttes]

The poll thing I still feel somewhat strongly on. No suggestion was made that the poll results would guarantee changes. At best, it's a way to roughly gauge opinions on the change. If we want to go with using the strawpoll as determining the way to go, 79% of people would not be okay with the thing being reverted outright. That's kind of my point with the poll: it hasn't given you actionable information. If you want to argue "it's still the way to make the most people happy, as any other options has less of a percentage", 42% are for "reduce the penalties to some degree". 19% are for "keep things exactly the same or with minor tweaks". I agree that you can't just add numbers together in the strawpoll because each player could vote in more than one category, but we don't have enough information to go on by virtue of how the poll worked. Ask any good statistician, the data is mostly meaningless/unactionable.

You do have a point, but the fact of the matter is that some choice has to be made. There is no separate option to abstain from doing something because that's included right in the poll.

By default, since some action must be taken, the most popular option should be the one chosen.

You do however have a point that it would be unactionable in most circumstances.

We could rectify this situation by simply making another poll with a default [PLEASE CHECK THIS BOX] option so we can get a rough estimate of the number of people actually voting.