(11-10-2016, 07:42 AM)atamusvaleo Wrote: This is tied into a much larger issue: one of empathy for others. Someone has already stated how they struggled in the past when coming to terms with their doagnosis as having Asperger's.
And despite that, I'm fine with the jokes. Asperger's is a really funky subject, because it really depends on what you make of it. It's not like race where you can't hide it. That said, I've had a very weird separation with it over time, so I don't feel like I'm really able to talk about it anymore.
At the end though, most of the puns are neutral enough that I suppose the only thing really worth changing would be the descriptions to assburger and asspie. Yeah, spergh is bad, but no one noticed that it really even was an Asperger's reference until this thread, in part due to all the Swedish jokes involved with the Chef, that said, I wouldn't oppose its removal.
(11-10-2016, 07:42 AM)atamusvaleo Wrote: This is tied into a much larger issue: one of empathy for others. Someone has already stated how they struggled in the past when coming to terms with their doagnosis as having Asperger's.
There's a question we should ask ourselves:
Do we desire to bevome a haven where people can play a game in an environment where they don't receive the typical harassment so commonly found in our day to day lives OR do we say "nah screw it, we think it's funny, so deal."
The fact that we already ban folks for using bigoted language speaks volumes in what direction we should take this (I would hope). I don't think this is necessarily something folks should be getting banned over but a light reminder that, hey it won't be tolerated if you continue with this behaviour, would be refreshing. Same goes for calling people retards, schizo, etc.
Our society's view are slowly adapting to become more accepting and inclusive of others. I'd hate to see goonstation make the same backward movement my country has just made.
Mate, it strikes me as though the vast majority of people with actual AS in here are saying it's funny. Someone even proposed the idea of adding more things like that, such as vaccinations having a small chance to cause spacebergers' syndrome (lol).
Replace all your speech verbs with borgspeak. "Says" becomes "states", "exclaims" to "declares" and "asks" to "queries".
So, from all the sperguses showing up here, myself included, saying that this is fine and pretty funny you end up picking a quote from someone saying they struggled with it in the past. Mind you, whoever you quoted still said this was funny and / or harmless. I really don't see what there is to say in the face of all of us going "this is ok".
I appreciate that you're trying to do a nice thing, however I believe that I don't need you to defend me personally. It also feels highly disrespectful of the rest of us in here to say "No, you have to find this offensive", then calling us "irrational" and acting "disappointed in the community".
11-10-2016, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2016, 10:07 AM by The_Rain. Edited 1 time in total.)
Here's the thing. It's also kind of disrespectful to shout down people who are unhappy with these jokes with 'Well, I'M NOT OFFENDED. You must just be too thin skinned.' And that sort of thing went down a lot on IRC. Heck, it's going on in here.
Why would someone post a contrary opinion if they're just going to get dogpiled? I mean, hell, I posted 'please don't make fun of my mental illness' and got 'grow a pair and live in the REAL WORLD' in response. Like, what the fuck, man? I deal with enough assholes in retail. I don't need them online, too. Just because other people are jerks doesn't mean one needs to add to the jerk-circle or use it as an excuse/reason to be shitty to another person.
I already got a couple of nasty PMs about how I got AN INNOCENT GUY BANT as if I'm sort of just evilly plotting to lure people into my sinister SJW No-Fun Pit Trap.
I honestly thought the stuff with ass was because it was butt puns, but as I said, I have trouble reading things. I sincerely doubt anyone on this server really hates people with autism or aspbergers. Granted, there's not many good PLI puns. It's just a communication/linguistic disorder (and someone already made the cunning linguist pun).
Edit: Like, I'd love one of the descriptions on the ass burger to be like: What what it's butt. Or 'It's ass, what were you expecting?' or 'Assburger. How ass-inine.'
yeah please do not grump at folks for having opinions that differ from your own, i poasted this thread to get a variety of opinions and see what people thought!! this is a NO ARGUMENT ZONE let's all be true buckaroos for each other ok ok
(11-10-2016, 09:57 AM)popecrunch Wrote: yeah please do not grump at folks for having opinions that differ from your own, i poasted this thread to get a variety of opinions and see what people thought!! this is a NO ARGUMENT ZONE let's all be true buckaroos for each other ok ok
11-10-2016, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2016, 10:20 AM by UrsulaMejor. Edited 1 time in total.)
Personally, I don't really see the issue as one consisting necessarily of actual hurt feelings or offense, or whether or not a joke is funny or not, or even whether it's even really offensive or not. My belief is that our goal should be value consistency.
In the past, we have defined bigoted elements as those which disparage certain groups in order to produce an effect at their expense, regardless of whether or not the usage was intended to be offensive, funny, or ironic. Ex: the aids virus, the gay virus, the HEE HEE HEE MADE A FART "retardation" effect, etc.
Those jokes were campy, dumb, and never meant to offend, and yet they were removed because we've expressed that we have the value of avoiding needlessly bigoted elements; that they were funny to a lot of people and very few people found them genuinely offensive was valued a lot less than our desire to not act in that way needlessly.
The goonstation/ss13 "meme" of using sperg as a pejorative is inconsistent with these values, independent of whether or not any particular person is taking offense or is feeling hurt by its use.
In summary,
We currently have the value of not wanting to perform in a needlessly discriminatory or harmful fashion.
If we want to be consistent in our values, we can't make special exceptions without merit.
The making fun of people on the autism spectrum is a needlessly discriminatory and harmful element without any merit that justifies its exception.
Therefore, to be consistent in our values we cannot make a special exception for these elements.
As someone with Asperger's(technically classified as on the autism scale right now...)
I've considered both sides. Sperg is generally something that is usually used as slang(stop being such a sperg), and is honestly frequently enough used as a slur degrading people that I think it would be removed. As for assburgers, while it isn't used as much as sperg, it's still used frequently enough as a slur and to disparage people who are socially inept that I think it should be removed as well.
Asspies is on the fence, and is rarely used as a slur against me and others, but should be changed for a similar reason as assburgers.
While the puns are amusing, and I am overall okay with the description(I am definitely awkward and find humor in said descriptions), I think there is far too much emotional baggage associated with the terms sperg and assburgers to stay as they are. It would be like calling a cigarette a 'nig'. While again I appreciate the pun and find humor in the description, both terms have in my experience been used as slurs against me and others(albeit indirectly about someone who is socially awkward in general).
We currently have the value of not wanting to perform in a needlessly discriminatory or harmful fashion.
If we want to be consistent in our values, we can't make special exceptions without merit.
The making fun of people on the autism spectrum is a needlessly discriminatory and harmful element without any merit that justifies its exception.
Therefore, to be consistent in our values we cannot make a special exception for these elements.
This is what I was driving at.
Also, the argument of, "I have Asperger's so it's okay because I'm not offended," is EXACTLY the same as someone saying, "I'm black or gay and I'm not offended by these pejoratives." An excuse that won't stop you from being banned in such cases.
if we really wanted to avoid the semantics of assburger and asspie, i can definitely say i would be first in line for buttburgers
i mean seriously they're called butts ingame anyway!!
We currently have the value of not wanting to perform in a needlessly discriminatory or harmful fashion.
If we want to be consistent in our values, we can't make special exceptions without merit.
The making fun of people on the autism spectrum is a needlessly discriminatory and harmful element without any merit that justifies its exception.
Therefore, to be consistent in our values we cannot make a special exception for these elements.
This is what I was driving at.
Also, the argument of, "I have Asperger's so it's okay because I'm not offended," is EXACTLY the same as someone saying, "I'm black or gay and I'm not offended by these pejoratives." An excuse that won't stop you from being banned in such cases.
Thirded
Also, maybe we should spitball some replacement names/descriptions? Butt burger, the burger with more buns
11-10-2016, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2016, 01:37 PM by Ed Venture.)
You should wait for the voting to conclude before trying to remove/change things.
Also I'm just saying if the majority of the community says they are not offended by something don't try super hard to make them feel offended or bad for not being offended. That just means it's not as bad as you think it is.
Also there is a difference between mean-spirited jokes to just jokes. I feel these are just jokes and besides almost all forms of comedy are supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Comedy is a narrative art form and the uncomfortable disruption of the norm is a key point in any narrative arc. If humor weren’t uncomfortable it wouldn’t be humor.
My intention with coming up with replacements is, I really think we can both come up with something that doesn't reference a disability, and is also funnier than what's currently there.
I've also said I'm not trying to guilt or shame anyone for their opinion here
(11-10-2016, 01:42 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: My intention with coming up with replacements is, I really think we can both come up with something that doesn't reference a disability, and is also funnier than what's currently there.
I've also said I'm not trying to guilt or shame anyone for their opinion here
I'm not solely responding to you, I'm just reading the thread and decided to put my thoughts down
Well it's not like I don't see validity in the opposing viewpoints. Urs's notion of consistency being the most solid. It's logical. It's how it should be, I get that, but it's not how I want it. I'm actually standing opposed to logic; that's an odd feeling.
I want SS13 to be a little crude, somewhat rude, and maybe even the tiniest amount of lewd. I liked the hilarity clause. I like not having to worry too much about my word choices when I speak without the intent to do harm. We're all adult-ish here.
I don't mind ditching sperghetti. I honestly didn't notice it 'cause svede. I prefer asspie and assburger because it rolls off the tongue and, even if we change the names, they'll still be asspies and assburgers. The pun is built in. As for the description, well, you're technically eating ass so yeah, awkward is mild. Unless this is some new insult I didn't get when I was in school.
I'm not so worried about buttpies or buttburgers honestly. I'm more worried about that slippery slope. How far do we go to protect people that aren't really insulted anyways? Get rid of all religious symbols? Remove all stereotypes like accents or genetic disorders? Force everybody to use gender neutral pronouns?
I think we just have to accept that some things are going to bother us, but so long as the overwhelming majority isn't seriously hurt then it's okay. There's always going to be that one guy who is offended by everything, after all. This isn't the game for them.
Goonhub
It's just a communication/linguistic disorder (and someone already made the cunning linguist pun).
