[PR] Experiment: Bodies no longer fit in Enzymatic Reclaimers [mdb ignore]

[Lord_earthfire]

Make chemical condensers pipes being able to be attached to the reclaimer? That way, chemistry could pipe blood via chempipes into the reclaimer...

Oh heck, i nerdsnipped myself. I got a PR i need to write this week.

[Stush]

Nice, i usually just stuff rat and roach meat into the thing.

Would it be possible to make it so we can put skulls and hair and leather into it too? Just seems weird that we can't reclaim other things that come from bodies.

[Kotlol]

Kinda side related, but I been thinking of something that might have worked better for the old system for fun sabotaging for antags.

You know how you can fish in the cloning pod for weird things? Why not be able to have the antag able to waste biomatter on spawning such creatures at one point?

Also brings up another point, fishing in the tank and getting random parts/fish also can be used for the reclaimer no? But isn't it technically using the biomatter to fish one up?

Just small things that are "sorta" related to the reclaimer, but not fully. But the sabotaging would been better if bodies could be stuffed in and having a tank at 100% biomatter could lead to evil clone monsters overwhelming medbay by an antag.


Anyway sorry for the side tracking, but I felt it related to here as it got me to the fishing point, since the reclaimer is all about keeping bio matter levels up.

[Frank_Stein]

Nice, i usually just stuff rat and roach meat into the thing.

Would it be possible to make it so we can put skulls and hair and leather into it too? Just seems weird that we can't reclaim other things that come from bodies.

Might be funny if you could give the next clone roach, cow, and skeleton mutations if biomatter was majority sourced from those

[Raqio]

I don't know how this PR is faring on RP, but on classic I am failing to see how any of the positives work out.

Most security don't choose to round remove until late into the round when it is justified to do so. It's equally as easy, maybe even easier, to crusher or cremate the body because you can even do it while they are still alive. I also doubt it will be easier for mindhacks/thralls/gangs to revive anyone because the cloning process has been made so much more tedious through this and I doubt security will leave any bodies unattended if they plan to round remove them. In fact, we are so lowpop a lot of the time that the scarcity of biomatter has served to do more accidental round removing than sec would intentionally because nobody has jobs with medical access. I get that there is embalming fluid, but this is also locked behind medical which makes it, once again, insanely tedious to maintain. Nobody wants to maintain it when it's an actual chore, and not even one they signed up for, which leads to people just leaving bodies scanned in cloning and walking away until there's enough biomatter, which there probably never will be.

In the classic environment, it just doesn't serve any positive purpose. It makes keeping the already low population of crew alive so much more tedious outside of classic's higher pop hours, and not in a "fun challenge to occupy you" kind of way. Just unfun and tedious.

And I know that blood works for the reclaimer, but this doesn't change the fact that there are still no positives for classic, it just makes the negative slightly less bad.

[Lord_earthfire]

In fact, we are so lowpop a lot of the time that the scarcity of biomatter has served to do more accidental round removing than sec would intentionally because nobody has jobs with medical access. I get that there is embalming fluid, but this is also locked behind medical which makes it, once again, insanely tedious to maintain. Nobody wants to maintain it when it's an actual chore, and not even one they signed up for, which leads to people just leaving bodies scanned in cloning and walking away until there's enough biomatter, which there probably never will be.

Jobs are important. If noone is wirking their job and noone of command or AI coordinates the acces, then you have a defunct department. And that includes cloning.

Heck, what you describe means that you get no botanist to grow synthmeat. Or no scientist to grab an IV Bag to drain a monkey. Or no chef who turns a few monkeys into steaks to throw into the reclaimer.

I'm honestly flabberghasted on some peoples replies from the classic servers on the forums. We have people complaining that noone is setting up the engine while they want to do telesci. On most maps the work of 5 minutes at most. Now we have complains that people can't do a task that takes 3 minutes at most.

RP lowpop works without much of these issues. What happened to the classic nerds that you people SKILL ISSUE SO HARD?

I can see that classic is so low pop that there is noone to teach you. And that just means we should look at how to make learning the work more intuitive.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Jobs are important.  If noone is wirking their job and noone of command or AI coordinates the acces, then you have a defunct department. And that includes cloning.

Heck, what you describe means that you get no botanist to grow synthmeat. Or no scientist to grab an IV Bag to drain a monkey. Or no chef who turns a few monkeys into steaks to throw into the reclaimer.

I'm honestly flabberghasted on some peoples replies from the classic servers on the firums. We have people complaining that noone is stting up the engine while they want to do telesci. On most maps the work of 5 minutes at most. Now we have complains that people can't do a task that takes 3 minutes at most.

RP lowpop works without much of these issues. What happened to the classic nerds that you people SKILL ISSUE SO HARD?

I can see that classic is so low pop that there is noone to teach you. And that just means we should look at how to make the work more intuitive.

scientists don't get access to IV bags and this always pisses me off every single day

also "lowpop" rp is like 20 players and lowpop classic is like 2 players

[glowbold]

temporarily removed to address some issues.

[Agent reburG]

Make chemical condensers pipes being able to be attached to the reclaimer? That way, chemistry could pipe blood via chempipes into the reclaimer...

Oh heck, i nerdsnipped myself. I got a PR i need to write this week.

Maybe also to the pod? 

That way you could speed the cloning process up, considering you have an automated supply. 
You currently already can do that, but adding pills or having a fuel tank is ungrateful.

[Lord_earthfire]

scientists don't get access to IV bags and this always pisses me off every single day

also "lowpop" rp is like 20 players and lowpop classic is like 2 players

Many test chambers in science very often feature IV bags. But regardless of that, if you are already in medbay for cloning, there are IV bags lying around.

Lowpop on rp is like 6. And the game is not and should not be balanced for these dire numbers you neantion. I mean 2 pop is 1 crewmember and 1 antag.

[Daemon.V]

I dont like this idea at all. Getting this discs in cloning was already annoying, but this is just pian. Doctors(if we have any on lowpop classic) have better things to do than digging out organs whole shift when there is pilling stack of bodies waiting to clone because there was some rampager. Many jobs dont have medical acces. Quoting friend up there it take 3minutes at most to dig out organs sure its easy but sometimes there is no time to even do that. Earlier you just popped someone into reclaimer and had biomass to quick clone someone where some gang or nukies going on. And now? no biomass mean someone got round removed. Im not really sure if this should apply to classic servers.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Many test chambers in science very often feature IV bags. But regardless of that, if you are already in medbay for cloning, there are IV bags lying around.

Cogmap 1 is about the most common map and that's lacking one. Other maps may have an IV but they're tucked away (kondaru, clarion) or offstation (donut 2, neon) so they're in no means convenient, which is kind of stupid because a bunch of science can be done with them. On top of that, you only get 1, and maybe I'm misremembering but I thought they were saline-glucose drips so you'd have to drain all of that crap out before getting to draw somethings blood. 

Also saying that "there are IV bags lying around" for players who have sci access and happen to be in cloning is a lie. Empty IV drips are, at minimum, behind the operating room door AND the blood supply fridge. Even if you have the tools to hack a door you'll have to hit that fridge like 20 times to open it. There's saline-glucose drips in some med rooms on some maps, but you'll still have to empty it 25 times into a beaker to use it to collect blood. 

wall of text'd but I had a lot to say about that. 

Lowpop on rp is like 6. And the game is not and should not be balanced for these dire numbers you neantion. I mean 2 pop is 1 crewmember and 1 antag.

I don't think I see goonstation 4 go below 10 players, unless the servers have gone down. 

Also I think the game should be enjoyable, singleplayer. BYOND isn't exactly the most popular platform on the internet, goonstation classic is at 0 players most of the time while I'm awake. I don't know what there is to lose if you made the game fun without many players and fun with a lot of players. Other games accomplish that.

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I dont like this idea at all. Getting this discs in cloning was already annoying, but this is just pian. Doctors(if we have any on lowpop classic) have better things to do than digging out organs whole shift when there is pilling stack of bodies waiting to clone because there was some rampager.  Many jobs dont have medical acces. Quoting friend up there it take 3minutes at most to dig out organs sure its easy but sometimes there is no time to even do that. Earlier you just popped someone into reclaimer and had biomass to quick clone someone where some gang or nukies going on. And now? no biomass mean someone got round removed. Im not really sure if this should apply to classic servers.

also yeah after seeing this pr in action, I know I shilled it beforehand but just like the 60 minute shuttle calls maybe it was a mistake. we COULD exist without being able to recycle corpses in the cloner, but it makes the game a lot more annoying. I think I was overzealous about the knowledge of using blood in the cloning pod for biomatter

it doesn't ruin the game for me but it it's kinda annoying not having any way to dispose of bodies in cloning if you have no med access. which makes me question why the hell cloning didn't get a morgue chute when they merged this

[Solenoid]

To me, this feels like yet another "make medbay more complex" PR that's actually just giving medbay more busywork. I genuinely can't foresee a non-medical antag trying to break into most morgues, just given their position in medbays next to robotics or in the case of donut 3, literally in the middle of the medbay. Bodies will pile up in the medbay or chaplain morgue(this is maybe the only place where an antag could easily break in) and get crushered or incinerated once the person is cloned and harvested, funerals are usually reserved for characters who did something notable, so I doubt the chaplain will be holding them every time someone dies.

I don't really like most of these PRs, and that's no failing of the quality of the code or the intent of the changes, I just don't think any meaningful gameplay is added for most players, and the changes are being looked at in a vacuum. I played a few round with this test PR active and I don't think there was a single funeral or anything like that that I remember, but it does make medbay's job a little more tedious, which is just piled on all the other "slightly tedious" medbay changes, like cloner disks and so on.

Each change on its own is not that bad, but they begin to just amplify one another. Just 2 years ago, you could stick a person in the cloner, scan them, clone them, then recycle their body and have them out of medbay in 3 minutes. Now you'd have to take their disk out of the rack, put it in the computer, clone them, rescan them on the disk, and pray that someone is harvesting all the organs and everything from that body so you can recycle them and clone whoever needs it next. 

I'm sorry if this just sounds intensely critical, but it's just another one of those changes I don't like much, because it adds very little actually fun gameplay for medical while complicating their job. This is still a game at the end of the day, and I personally want any extra stuff added to jobs to be fun to interact with and provide a new strategic decision to the player. I'd prefer if harvesting all the organs and everything would give extra biomass which processes faster, but recycling the whole body would still be around 50% of the cost to clone and be slower to process. This would have the best of both worlds in my opinion, with the extra work being rewarded but not required so that during slow times, medbay can harvest the organs and limbs and etc., but during a rush they can still do something to make up for biomass costs.

[Torchwick]

I actually do agree with Solenoid’s take. I agree that medical can be “too easy” in some capacity, but it feels like these changes are just getting tossed in with very little regard for how fun it is for the people dealing with the changes. This PR I did not mind too much, but it does make me wince to see more and more medical changes that just end up making gameplay less fun.

I will say that I am happy to see that this PR has been reworked and tweaked based on feedback, though. Being open to the criticism on these is good, and while I’m not a classic player, I do believe that regardless of population size, it’s not fair to claim it’s a “skill issue” for people that are annoyed by changes causing more tedious work.

As far as this PR goes though, maybe a middle ground could be met? Make bodies reclaimable but worth much less? Maybe make it slower? I think it’d be better to give and take tiny pieces with these mechanics, rather than completely change to make it slower and harder to achieve the same result for little benefit. I would love for there to be more of a benefit to organ harvesting, but if it’s not enjoyable in this rendition, I’m glad it’s been pulled away for now.

[Lord_earthfire]

Just 2 years ago, you could stick a person in the cloner, scan them, clone them, then recycle their body and have them out of medbay in 3 minutes. Now you'd have to take their disk out of the rack, put it in the computer, clone them, rescan them on the disk, and pray that someone is harvesting all the organs and everything from that body so you can recycle them and clone whoever needs it next. 

And that change is for the better.

I personally think medbay being functional without dedicated doctors should not be a thing. And that includes cloning.

I remember how awfull medbay was ~3 years ago on classic. That's what made me leave that server behind and migrate to RP in the first place. And i think we should stay as far away as possible from that self-servicing tiderhell.