Changes to deafness and blindness traits

[JohnnyJohn]

As of posting this, the deafness and blindness traits give you a permanent (can't be removed by genetics or cloning) mutation of blindness or deafness, and give you corresponding equipment on roundstart, such as VISORs and auditory headsets.

The problem is that these don't support job gear on those respective slots, and will actually override it. This is really bad when you're dependent on said gear, like engineering headsets for coordinating a singulo engine, or research headsets for telescience and azones.

Therefore, I propose a slight change. Whenever you spawn with these traits, they get some data tacked on to allow for the functionality of whatever they replace. For example, a blind and deaf doctor would get a VISOR with pro-doc HUD on it, and an auditory headset that can access the medical chat.

However, this cannot be replaced! If you lose these, have them stolen, or are gibbed and cloned without your gear, you can't get them back! You can't fabricate them, buy them, or anything like that. They're unique to the roundstart. If you lose them, you're screwed.

All in all, this shifts those traits from just fucking with your ability to do a job, to being more of a fair challenge.

[RSOD]

i don't know if having them be "you get only one" would be fun, especially if you're trapped by flock or some staffie decides to steal it for the funny
maybe make it so hacked medical fabs can make upgrades similiar to that of the glasses, each visor only being able to hold one. not sure how to do it with headsets, but maybe just tap a headset on your hearing headset to get it's channels?

[Lefinch]

I'm not very sure about what I think about having the "protective" traits of being deaf/blind with variously reduced downsides. Hypothetically, if a visor gives you eye protection in a department you wouldn't usually have it, but also does everything your usual eye-slot department tools do it sounds like less of a trait that should give a point to me, and again to me: that seems weird.

I've also never been too sure about auditory headsets not having their job channel at round start, however. It's a social deduction game and taking away your department's primary form of in-house communication has always felt like it's not quite right. So I guess I'm 50/50 on this idea. One thing I would want to avoid is a scenario where a +1 trait involving a disability is a strong meta choice. A little give and take works fine but too much helpfulness or unhelpfulness and I would hypothesise a lot more deaf and blind characters for what I would personally consider the "wrong" reason.

an alternative is to completely remove the lot and they just ersatz 1:1 substitute for seeing/hearing without any drawback or benefit and make it cosmetic. I really don't know what I make of that one.

[JORJ949]

As someone who plays a lot with the short sighted trait I really think the point of those traits is that you have to make do without the accompanying slot, (although with short sighted its not too much of a downside to swap to something else if its absolutely necessary), the only times I really use my sechuds when running shortsighted on sec is when its revs or im with a known vamp. Making them only punish you on death/stolen item would make them lose a lot of their interest IMO. At least with eyewear I know the one you spawn with will instead be put into your bag, deaf people I think can put their departmental headset in their pocket to hear on it, then swap to talk and swap back to hear.

[JohnnyJohn]

To me, that's a shitty downside though. It's less a challenging one, and more so just a game harming one.

[Lefinch]

, deaf people I think can put their departmental headset in their pocket to hear on it, then swap to talk and swap back to hear.

Clever. Noting this one down.

To me, that's a shitty downside though. It's a less challenging one, and more so just a game harming one.

I'm struggling to parse this so I might be missing something, sorry. You've proposed a change to the trait items that reduce the challenge, but you want it to be as challenging? I'm not following what exactly you want here.

[JohnnyJohn]

, deaf people I think can put their departmental headset in their pocket to hear on it, then swap to talk and swap back to hear.

Clever. Noting this one down.

To me, that's a shitty downside though. It's a less challenging one, and more so just a game harming one.

I'm struggling to parse this so I might be missing something, sorry. You've proposed a change to the trait items that reduce the challenge, but you want it to be as challenging? I'm not following what exactly you want here.

Well, the trait cutting job equipment isn't fair challenge, it just hurts your ability to play the game. Imagine a deaf captain whose headset was deleted and replaced by one that could only access general. Can't coordinate with department heads or hear about revs, nothing like that. Or imagine a blind security officer, unable to use sechud. That's not some challenge to overcome, that just hurts the gameplay.

To make my point, think about the nervous trait. In exchange for +1 trait point, your character now stuns when faced with things like blood and whatnot. To deal with this challenge, you have to either learn to avoid frightening situations or deal with the stuns, or learn to keep CBD in your system when things get bad. With the stinky trait, you have to manage a stricter hygiene stat and learn to bathe often, or deal with the consequences. That's a fair challenge for a fair reward.

But if you look at blind and deaf, that's absent. There's no negative gameplay quirk to work around and learn to manage, you just get vital job equipment deleted. Like, "fuck you, have your functionality cut."
The difference in what I propose is that you still have your job equipment, the challenge comes from not losing it. You have control over it, instead of just a permanent fuck-you.

[Lefinch]

I see, thanks for the response!

I think we fundamentally disagree on what's a "challenge to be overcome" here, which is fine that's opinions so it's worth putting the idea out here to see if people concur with you. But I'm going to try and explain my viewpoint on this as to why I brought it up. I have no issue that's not convincing enough for you, hopefully we'll hear some other viewpoints.

 For me, the loss of the eye-slot based tools can be overcome, sometimes using a PDA tool in its place. Sometimes by taking the fact you've lost functionality and compensating via coordinating with your team. I guess I'll use the SecHUD here, so you've lost the ability to easily see if someone's marked arrest. You've still got the options to communicate with the security team (I heard Bob dole was set to arrest, and I can see bob dole over there, I should probably talk to them) That's what I'd personally consider "A problem you have to work around" there might be times the whole crew can't rely on SecHUD in particular: If someone's messed with the records, and that regular player who doesn't use SecHUD has a theoretical advantage of being used to that and relying on other ways to work out if someone's a criminal. No longer have pro-doc? You're going to be treating your scanner as a new best friend, and relying on some visual/audio cues to see if someone's having medical issue. The pro-docs can also be fooled much like the SecHUD. Sometimes there's a different tool that can do the same job, sometimes there isn't but there's other ways to find out without using the tool. The one area that I think might be a question is the meson goggles ability to pick out mech comp sender/receiver chains, but that's a relatively new feature I'm actually unsure if there's another tool that does the same thing, and not to put too fine a point on it: we were coping without it before. 

Jorj provides a lateral solution for the headset channel stuff. That's clever thinking and sure it's awkward, but it's a challenge overcome. The same's true of just coping with that department channel loss and communicating with your team directly via PMs or the general radio. I might have my own personal questions about whether that's the right approach for a mechanical disadvantage in a very social game, but I don't deny that that's a challenge that can be overcome.

[Glamurio]

This has been suggested many times, and will continue to be suggested by many people. As far as I recall, the dev stance on this was negative, so I doubt we'll see it added. Primarily the biggest hindrance using this trait is that it prevents communication on actually communicative jobs (such as Security), and it was often brought up that you can just "use the PDA instead", but PDA messaging is so barebones and overlooked that it basically just means "take this trait if you want zero departmental interaction on radio".

The only thing that truly bugs me is that it's an enforced mechanical blindness. I think it'd be much better and immersive for the game for you to be able to replace your eyes and ears or something at a roboticist, since they're bleeding for more stuff to do that'd help as well. I realize that may cause some powergamers to do so at roundstart, but that behavior can get ahelped.

[JORJ949]

Or imagine a blind security officer, unable to use sechud. That's not some challenge to overcome, that just hurts the gameplay.

As I previously said I do play sec (HoS/NTSC nowadays) without sechuds most of the time and it IS a challenge to overcome in that im much weaker to revs and vamps for example, I do not think it hurts my gameplay, if anything I think it made me realise the importance of communication as security. If deaf DELETES the headset (which it probably doesnt) then it just needs the same rules applying that blind/short sighted have in that it puts it in your bag.

[freedo5]

I would like to add that the eyeware issue can actually be circumvented with robotics, while the new eyes you get won't give you sight back their effect remains in place. I've seen plenty of doctors that take near sighted or blind and then go and get eye surgery for pro doc eyes when they can.

[mona]

1. You can put a headset in your pocket and use as JORJ illustrated to stay active on radio
2. Deaf doesn't delete your department headset; congrats you now have an additional loose item to take care of and make sure it doesn't end up in the wrong place
3. Deaf and blind are fine as is

• 3a. Sec radio compromised? Congrats, the secoff using PDA the whole time anyways now has advantage AND the ability to micromanage the system and coordinate the team there. Cool.
  
• 3b. Deaf used to be stronger and you just took off your headset to fight shamblers and vampires and not get sonic stunned. It's fine how it is now and has come a ways to a good place. (to one of lefinch's points, yes there were GAMERS who took it for flashbang immunity in exchange for +2 trait points)
  

edit: "fine as is" with the caveat of what lefinch suggested, if we really thought it wasn't worth +1 trait points, I'd be fine with them both being cosmetic 0 point things; i used to harp hard on it being a significant disadvantage worth the points but idc really now, i just don't want people to look at them and go "oh this is so NEGATIVE, it's SO BAD it even GIVES you trait points, we should do something to mitigate this in the gameplay for the people who take it".