i think goon should be an 18+ server, like everyone else.

[Zamujasa]

i'll keep this brief for everyone's benefit.

i think allowing minors here is a mistake, for goon and for them.


reasons:

1. every other major server is like this. tgstation, one talked about semifrequently in discord, has an all players must be 18+ to play. coolstation does as well. goon is unique in allowing minors.

2. this is simply not a pg or pg-13 game. this is very clearly m-for-mature level. this was brought up elsewhere, but pegi's ratings system agrees too; glorification of drugs and violence, gambling, death and dismemberment. (i also just think it's kinda funny that you can drink all the booze you want, but you can't call it sex on the beach. and yes i know it's because of the word filter, you don't have to remind me.)

3. the way the game works, it forces minors to pretend to be adults. this is fine when it's all minors, because then there's no problem. this is a lot less so when there is no way to tell who is a minor and who isn't. there are a lot of things that people say in this game that are fine around adults but not around kids, and this doesn't strictly mean in a sexual sense. adults should, generally speaking, not be verbally abusing kids, and that's exactly the kind of thing that this game allows (and to some degree, encourages).

even in the case where inappropriate things aren't happening strictly in game, the ease of communicating and moving to discord is trivial, and again, this isn't just about sexual things. i was part of the admin team, i know there have been reports of bigoted shit being thrown around by under-18s. that isn't something we should encourage by allowing them to congregate and mix with adults.


ss13 was always a mature game, and in no longer being part of the team -- leaving me to consider what i would do if and when i decide to set off on my own server -- i thought about the age limit. initially i was thinking 16+, but then i realized that there's not much of a reason to not just make it 18+ and save everyone the hassle.


some attempts to head off the obvious.

"we don't want sexual stuff":
that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying players should be 18 or older, not that all (or even most) 18+ content should be allowed. "you must be this tall to ride".

"we don't want to be policing or checking ages":
then don't. nobody on tg or cool is going to ask for a picture of your id. you are expected to heed the rules and be An Adult. if you are an obvious kid, or act like one -- having your age in your discord profile, talking about going to (non-college) classes, etc. "but people lie" yes, they do that anyway. that's why you're a human and not a robot.

"we have minors here playing already":
that's unfortunate, but i hear the kids have roblox these days? this is semi-sarcastic but i'm sure they can find something to do other than the spaceman murder simulator for a few years.

"i like having minors around and having a space for minors":
that's fine. we can simply agree to disagree. i liked about it too, until i sat down and thought about it some more.

"this is purely spite based off of the other thread":
sort of -- i made this thread because of it -- but no. i had thought about the age issue weeks ago after being fired and quitting, hence my joke invitation having a 16+ limit. i'm also absolutely not expecting anything to come of this thread; i just feel it's important enough to bring up, because i don't like the current situation.


to repeat: i am not asking anything out of this thread. i am very well aware the outcome is "no, we are not changing anything", and that's fine. i just have opinions, and this was an impetus to share them.

thanks for reading. cheers

[ZeWaka]

the grandstanding is getting tiring

[KikiMofo]

I agree for the fact that Ive been part of this community for over a decade now and the only warnings I have on the discord are because I DARED to mention porn.
Very annoying in my opinion.
Don't really have much of an opinion otherwise. Just think its silly to get up peoples asses for mentioning stuff like that. Or for posting a video game that happens to have anime girls in scant clothing on the cover.
I don't think it should be 18+ server though. Worried that will send the wrong impression of what Goonstation is about. Don't need people showing up to ERP or some shit.
Just make it so its not a fuckin kids show anymore. I understand that for some reason some people in charge want to make it so EVERYONE including kids can play and not feel put off but I don't think SS13 is a kids game. Its not roblox or whatever.
Id say if someone REALLY wants to make a kid friendly Goon server then just have a spin off kid friendly Goonstation server. Though yeah I'm sure it's much more annoying to do than I think it is.
I just wanna joke around and feel comfortable without worrying I'm going to get warned/banned because I said something that a kid shouldn't hear or whatever the excuse is.
Part of the reason I don't play the game much anymore. Thinking anything I play I'll say something wrong and get shitcanned for the first time after all these years. Obviously not the only reason I don't play much though. Just one of the things that sticks in my mind whenever I think to myself I feel like playing some SS13 again.

[TDHooligan]

it's open knowledge that ss13, a free game with low resource requirements, with all the content based around it, has plenty of teenagers playing. I played it at 14, my mates 12~16.

even to humor it. I don't imagine that the current place to play goon suddenly becoming 18+ will detract the existing teenage playerbase from playing. then it's an open secret that goon is an 18+ server with underage players and romance (the thing that kickstarted these debates).

surely, if you wanted a goon server for 18+ rules, you'd be better off launching a separate 18+ one

[NotDucc]

Alright, I was going to post my own thread about this to bring the discussion somewhere it would be relevant, but it seems I was beat to it.

I'll go ahead and throw in my rambling thoughts on this; I agree that the current age bracket stated in the rules (13+) is too low and should be raised. While yes, this is a very comical and cartoonish game, I have two main issues with the current policy:

• One, the absolute level of violence thrown around in the game. While playing you’re likely going to have your character ripped limb-from-limb, explode into gibs, or you can even have your character commit suicide in a multitude of comedic yet horrifying ways. This isn’t really something I think a 13 year old should be playing, and this is coming from someone who played games like Left 4 Dead, Fallout, and Dishonored around that age, all of which having a decent amount of gore in the combat. However, ss13 feels different than if a kid that age were to play gorey games like the ones I listed. And I’m gonna go on a limb and say it’s the RP and online elements that ALSO goes into it that makes me feel this way. Whether you’re playing on classic or RP servers, you’re still playing a character of your own creation and interacting with real people playing their own characters. I think that the comedic and lighthearted take on violence, drugs and such in an online community could have a MUCH greater negative impression on someone that young when compared to a 13 year old playing Call of Duty or the like.
  

• Then there is the second issue, which is the rules on character romance. I completely agree with the current state of the character romance policy and I think romance can be a good way to push for more character development on the RP servers, so long as it doesn’t push in a way that breaks ERP rules and that it doesn’t close off interactions. However, the age of the players is where things can get dicey with this rule. I, personally, already wouldn’t really feel that comfortable finding out that my character told a 13 year old that they were “going to murder them and eat their organs” or whatever I think is a funny and insane thing to say, and I DEFINITELY wouldn’t want to ever risk starting a character relationship with someone that young. Yes, players checking with each other is an important part of doing a character relationship like that, but I think the age minimum of 13+ leaves too much room for error, headaches, and/or worse down the line in regards to this.
  

The best solution to both of these issues would be to raise the age bracket, which I think at a bare-minimum should be 16+. It's good enough to keep people who are probably too young from playing and fits the current server environment fairly well. While I personally wouldn't mind seeing it raised to 18+ instead, I also understand how drastic of a change that could potentially be to the server environment, so that isn’t what I'm going to suggest.

I’m also well-aware that people lie on the internet, and obviously putting up a sign that says “16+” or "18+" won’t stop absolutely everyone, but it at least puts up a policy and expectation to be followed and enforced if someone finds out otherwise. I also know that changing the age bracket at all will be a big change and might lead to some people needing to leave the server. Though given everything I’ve already said, I think it would be a healthy change for the server to make. I'll even throw in the idea of "grandfathering" players who are about a year under the minimum but have already been playing awhile, though it isn't an idea I'm going to fully vouch or pitch for because I'm sure that's even more work on an already big policy change suggestion.

That's all I've gotta say on it. Probably said something weirdly because a lot of this was a draft I was already writing earlier today, though I think a change to the age requirement policy could be a good thing. Just maybe not to 18+ unless it's handled with care (I think TDHooligan brings up a good point about the kind of look that could give the server)

[Lord_earthfire]

To be honest, i was like ~12 when i played high-violence games like gta 3 or the first manhunt. Although i was certsinly too young for the latter. I feel i would be very pretentious when i advocate for a pg 18 rating on a silly gane with highly abstracted violence.

Personally, these kind of arguments are over-protective of humans who are, theoretically, able to handle the concepts if death, violence and the common human life. And teenagers should at that age be able to understand these concepts.

So, let's ask what things we need children to protect against:
- Realistic despiction of violence
- sexual content
- other people

The violence despicted in this game is abstracted in a way that no official site would give it a 18+ rating. Heck, even 13+ is a fucking huge stretch, looking at modern games and tv series. Whst is described in this game is not realistic violence at all.

We got sexual content covered by our rules. And the only way we would lift it to 18+ would be to allow sexual content in the game/discord. And i hope noone wants that.

Creeps/Groomers and others are also covered by the rules. That is a risk, but it is important to combat that by creating a safe space where people can tell/report when they feel uncomfortable. Forcing prople to hide their age by going 18+ would -make the problem worse-.

Theres a last question to ask: do WE want minors on our server? It can be tiring talking to teens. We need to restrict our speech/topics. That's taxing and i believe it's a valid question to ask if we want to work with that. It also makes some topics always very iffy to play, like i would not do romance RP on this server, except with an metafriend.

But seriously: if i want to talk about my relationships, personal problems or health-issues with other adults, i got better places than a silly farty spessmen game. I just want to project a red chainsaw over a barely human sprite and pretend im gutting them like a pig.

[Kotlol]

While the actions are 18+... this is such a huuuuggeeeeee shift in tone that is unnessarcy.

"Back in my day you can put a slot machine in an ALL AGES game" (Pokemon remember?)

And yet I also say Goonstation is silly and simple. It has a lot of immaturities that other servers do not have.
It's a mixed bag of all kinds of things.

IN MY OPINION... this is a "NON" issue.
Be it 13+ or 18+ it doesn't matter.

We are fixing a problem that "IN THE END" will not matter at all.
Cause if it stays 13+, teens will come and go. People will missbehave.. cause some people are just wired or raised that way. It's a truth.
Make it 18+, Teens will come and go. People will missbehave... etc etc.

All we are doing is adding a stick saying: "See we think of others." But in reality it changes NOTHING.
Cause let's be real... Did we really look at SS13 and go: "Yea this is 18+ clearly!"
The answer is a big fat NOPERINO. I can assure you other servers who have it (cept the gross one) just have it cause of not much reason.
But anyway....

This suggestion came from something that spun out of control, to have another spinning out of control with elements that cannot be fixed.
Though I do have a new suggestion idea.

[freedo5]

Does goon really glorify drug use and gambling though? Most drugs that give an advantage in combat are also dangerous to use and give side effects, while the slot machines in the game aren't exactly money makers. At most goon glorifies violence, but I personally wouldn't call what I see on the screen graphic. That might just be me though.

[Emimiyu]

Eh, it's a bit wrong to say goon is the only server to allow minors. Monke and Para came up to my mind as one of the big servers that allows anyone under the age of 18.

To say goon is too gorish for teens, I have seen... a lot of pegi 12 games with darker theme (octopath traveler for example),and another example, shounen jump app is rated for 12 up in playstore, yet shounen manga can have a lot of violent theme, to put it into a perspective. Teens are... old. In a lot of countries, they can get a part time job, bank account, the right to vote, and driving license. Making up steve the accountant in a video game where he has to handle cartoonishly evil coworkers and other incompetent employee seems less serious than things teens can do.

Also, my opinion is that romance RP is a total different thing compared to antagonistic roleplay. Antagonistic roleplay means you will mostly only do something antagonistic once in a while on a same person, you would not interact with them everyday with the same set up. Romance rp on the other hands mean a person will meet the same person oftenly and while romance is a part of a game, it's pretty minor component compared to working in a space station with villains and aliens. So, sometimes, the enviroment may disrupt someone's dates and it doesn't have a lot of room to improve.. then it will be ideal to improve the rp out game right? This is where things might get trickier when it comes to romance.

[Guv Guvington]

While I am personally not the biggest fan of Goon beeing 13+ when barelly anyone playing it is actually this young, going full 18+ might result in very annoying side effects that I REALLY don't need to see in my 2D space fart game.
I suppose 16+ might be a better goal, but regardless, I don't see the 13+ ever getting changed.

[Glamurio]

Generally I agree with the take of making the game 18+, because I feel like it should be, just given the content that it features. I don't so much care about asking people to enforce it, just as much as I don't care if a teenager plays GTA 5, because you can't really realistically enforce it. I know people that have photoshopped their IDs to bypass checks, and at the end of the day there's only so much you can do. The ruling should merely be informal, and as an added explanation for really anyone running or participating in the server.

I don't necessarily think you can compare people of our generation playing Battlefield when they were younger to kids nowadays. Social media has changed the way most kids interact with, well, the entire internet really (and a problem in of itself), and protecting younger anyone from anything is nothing more than a noble endeavor these days. So I think adding a paragraph that reads "Hey, please be 18 years or older" doesn't do any harm, and if anything, can only help to improve the vibe.

[Frank_Stein]

I wouldnt be opposed to raising the age cap...

...but what would it actually accomplish? They're kids and teenagers, they're going to lie to get into the cool club for older teens & adults.

What I think would happen is people would feel more permissive to speak and act in ways they wouldn't around someone they knew was younger. Which would be fine, but it also would be a shift in the community culture.

You're asking to change the vibes of this place from something like a park or library into something more like a bar or nightclub.

I feel the former is the one that lets more people enjoy the game rather than the latter.

[JOELED]

I don't agree with everything that's been said in this thread, but I'd prefer if goon was at the least 16+ myself. Obviously I don't want people checking IDs, and don't believe that having it be an older age bracket in the rules will stop people who are younger from just deciding to break the rules anyways, but I'd still prefer it. 13 year olds are very, very young. I've interacted with people on the goon servers who have been very, very young, and who I've felt strongly were not being positively affected overall by their experiences on the server. Not because people were knowingly mistreating them, but because this is a social deduction game with a LOT of social forces at play -- I've watched a decent chunk of younger folks breaking down and confiding in me/people I've spectated that they don't understand a lot of what's going on on the servers socially, they don't understand why people don't like them (because they're young, the people they're trying to interact with are adults of various ages, and the way they talk is Different to the way that a 13 or 14 year old talks), and just struggling to handle "basic" gameplay mechanics like dealing with antags, being an antag, getting in trouble with sec/the admins -- "why is everyone mad at me/hurting me/picking on me" etc. I've specifically gone out of my way to try and include these younger folks who were struggling where I could, because I've seen people who are likewise uncomfortable with them actively avoid and exclude them, and I don't blame them. It's hard to talk to emotional children who just want to play the game with you when you're obviously not on here looking to babysit. I've seen those children's resentment and frustration grow until they ended up banned. I've had a child on this game tell me on classic after being RP banned that this was the only place that anyone ever talked to them, and they were completely alone otherwise, and that it was hard because they always seemed to be getting in trouble and didn't want to. I know it's not any player or admin's job to babysit or coddle children who are playing on the servers, and I'm taking it on myself to reach out and try to make sure they feel included in rounds.

This is just my own opinion/perspective. This is far from the only place on the internet where children will be at a disadvantage in video game-based social situations vs the adults around them, and surely there's a lot of children who are getting something positive out of playing the game. Regardless, as an adult it makes me uncomfortable.

[ZeWaka]

...they were completely alone otherwise, ... I know it's not any player or admin's job to babysit or coddle children who are playing on the servers, ...

in my opinion, it IS our (Admins) job to make sure people are being non-exclusionary, and help foster a friendly environment. playing a multiplayer game and having it feel like a singleplayer game is no fun, and is something i really want to avoid.

re rp rules: 6. ... Furthermore, do not ... exclude others from roleplaying opportunities without good cause.

[GreenJelly]

Speaking solely as myself, I am seeing some quite good points being made in this thread for raising the age restriction; JOELED especially brought up some things that clicked with me. 
I was neutral to the idea previously but I may now be leaning more towards at least raising the age to 16+. I will definitely keep thinking on this and reading people's thoughts on the issue.

Jelly