A new "Classic-RP" server variant

[Snowy :D]

If I'm reading the main post correctly, this is mainly pertaining to the fact that RP does not have certain features like nukies and blobs enabled, (which I don't have any take on since I don't play on RP) but it also mixes in that they want a server which has those enabled but still allow roleplay. Is this a general consensus amongst people who play RP that they want those things enabled? Why not test enable those features and see how players like it rather than immediately jumping the ship to alter classic to accommodate RP playstyle.

A few classic antags were introduced on RP in the past. I’m not 100% sure what everyone’s thoughts were since I don’t play RP, but they weren’t too great from what I’ve heard.

[Kotlol]

If I'm reading the main post correctly, this is mainly pertaining to the fact that RP does not have certain features like nukies and blobs enabled, (which I don't have any take on since I don't play on RP) but it also mixes in that they want a server which has those enabled but still allow roleplay. Is this a general consensus amongst people who play RP that they want those things enabled? Why not test enable those features and see how players like it rather than immediately jumping the ship to alter classic to accommodate RP playstyle.

A few classic antags were introduced on RP in the past. I’m not 100% sure what everyone’s thoughts were since I don’t play RP, but they weren’t too great from what I’ve heard.

It was the werewolf and wizard.

The werewolf was considered too aggresive in gameplay with low escalation or got cuddled cause PUPPER.
The wizard was considered a semi-success, though security hated their teleporting antics. They are still around.
Blob and Flock were not attempted, nor were revies and nukies.
Before that gangs were attempted and stayed.

[Solwra]

If I'm reading the main post correctly, this is mainly pertaining to the fact that RP does not have certain features like nukies and blobs enabled, (which I don't have any take on since I don't play on RP) but it also mixes in that they want a server which has those enabled but still allow roleplay. Is this a general consensus amongst people who play RP that they want those things enabled? Why not test enable those features and see how players like it rather than immediately jumping the ship to alter classic to accommodate RP playstyle.

A few classic antags were introduced on RP in the past. I’m not 100% sure what everyone’s thoughts were since I don’t play RP, but they weren’t too great from what I’ve heard.

It was the werewolf and wizard.

The werewolf was considered too aggresive in gameplay with low escalation or got cuddled cause PUPPER.
The wizard was considered a semi-success, though security hated their teleporting antics. They are still around.
Blob and Flock were not attempted, nor were revies and nukies.
Before that gangs were attempted and stayed.

I don't see a reason why those antagonists/modes cannot be adjusted to suit RP just as the changeling had their sting changed from neurotoxin to capulettium on RP, this seems more of a reasonable way to go about it in my opinion.

[Zamujasa]

If it's in the game, you can abuse it, if you think it's bad then PR a nerf or removal seems to be the going attitude these days.  I can see the logic there, even if I don't agree with it, but it makes responding to obnoxious playstyles much more reactive.

This development is specifically one i struggle with a lot. When i first left classic, i left it with fond memories. But when i started to contribute to the codebase, that fondness quickly vsnished.

You cannot make fun/whacky/overtuned features for a sandbox game when people play it like a competative moba game.

Even worse, it caters to these playstyles. If people realize "hey, i can abuse a feature when i want it to change" they will proceed to do so, ignoring the enjoyment if others.

We got a PR about a prefab up with some loot worth the exploration. And while so me loot can be adjusted to be less for free, people jump onto it with "yeah, that will get abused". I'm personally far beyond sick of this attitude.

While i still enjoy jumping on classic from time to time, just this thought and seeing some sec/antags behave quickly makes me jump back to RP.

I wouldn't quite say classic makes it less enjoyable for me to contribute, but i can definetly say it's producing a heck lot of headache at times.

this is the funny thing when people say "oh the devs are catering towards rp" or whatever: it often isn't! it's often because we have the ability to bonk players for abusing shit. on classic we have no such rule, we don't have a guideline or anything. (this is in the works, but things take time.)

so any fun thing we think of adding, or any problem item people discover, we have to think about in the context of classic: oh boy, a bunch of people who are going to immediately find out how to suck all the fun out of it as quickly as possible.

and because of this, it implicitly says "these things are okay because otherwise they would be removed or their constant use would be stopped". and so it sort of self-reinforces.


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a lot of the people i know who play 1 are as detached from goonstation as you can be. idk how easy it will be to get their responses.

to be frank, i am pushing (x) to doubt, if only because "i know lots of people who do this but they aren't here" is... i dunno. especially when (if you're aware of them, and feel as strongly about it as you do) it seems like something you would make them aware of.

they hop on for our mechanics, do something interesting/die and hop off. a lot of them play purely for the fact there is no ruling on how they play (else they would just play RP)

adding RP-style rules to 1, even if they're 'RP-lite', seems to undermine the only reason a lot of folk actually play 1. those that can be bothered with any kind of RP rules just jump on RP because it's in a healthier state.

there are a lot of discussions going on in here, but the one i have been focusing on is mostly "please do a bare minimum of RP and don't be a boring powergamer" (full legalese to come).

i do not personally think the rules will change in a way that impacts a significant amount of the playerbase. this is largely (from my perspective) targeted at a very particular kind of unfun behavior.

(the note about people jumping to rp because it has a healthier culture is already happening, btw, and from a lot of people who said they didn't really have any interest or were even afraid to try it, just because classic was that unfun for them as new players.)


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I don't see a reason why those antagonists/modes cannot be adjusted to suit RP just as the changeling had their sting changed from neurotoxin to capulettium on RP, this seems more of a reasonable way to go about it in my opinion.

the rp server typically has slower, calmer rounds, and requires some level of escalation before killing people.

the disabled game modes are usually team antags with a specific "end condition" that does not lend itself to roleplay.

- nuke operatives generally speaking would not stop to negotiate or otherwise politely say hello; similarly the crew would need to basically ignore the usual rules of engagement
- blobs cannot really "escalate" in any meaningful way, they are extremely destructive, and their round type ends when defeated, and the crew can't really respond in an RP way
- revs is another mechanics-heavy round type where the game has specific end conditions; this one is maybe more compatible but it could easily become a tide either way depending on how much RPing either side does

rp has salvagers as a round type, where classic only has it as a mid-round

[Glamurio]

I don't see a reason why those antagonists/modes cannot be adjusted to suit RP just as the changeling had their sting changed from neurotoxin to capulettium on RP, this seems more of a reasonable way to go about it in my opinion.

the rp server typically has slower, calmer rounds, and requires some level of escalation before killing people.

the disabled game modes are usually team antags with a specific "end condition" that does not lend itself to roleplay.

- nuke operatives generally speaking would not stop to negotiate or otherwise politely say hello; similarly the crew would need to basically ignore the usual rules of engagement
- blobs cannot really "escalate" in any meaningful way, they are extremely destructive, and their round type ends when defeated, and the crew can't really respond in an RP way
- revs is another mechanics-heavy round type where the game has specific end conditions; this one is maybe more compatible but it could easily become a tide either way depending on how much RPing either side does

rp has salvagers as a round type, where classic only has it as a mid-round

I still think nukies could work because people would more often than not stop and negotiate with NT, or do something like "here's our demands" type stuff. The nuke timer could be increased to give everyone more time to roleplay as well. Just like how we slightly adjusted changelings, we could do simple things to make nukies fit.

I actually think Revs could do amazing on RP. The whole "we're unhappy with command" shtick could be great for negotiation sessions; remember in RP it's not always about "winning", it often is about doing a gimmick and having fun with it. Revs on RP could be good enough sometimes if it ended in increased salaries and only a bit of murder. And once in a while, a nice bloodbath is a good change of pace for RP, just tweak the spawn rates and it should be okay.

[Cal]

Revs do not work on rp, I guarantee this. It always devolves to bloodshed insanely fast

[Decarcassor]

But again we are not talking about bringing classic antags to current RP rules. It wouldn't work this way. Nukies are the best exemple. Whenever an admin make a RP nukie round happen it generaly goes two ways: Either the nukies go for a silly gimmick like arriving in pizza boxes and its hilarious. Or they go for the "lets talk it out" plan and its the most awkward thing ever. Because what are the talks gonna end up in ? The nukies aren't going to not plant the bomb. Also most of the "negotations" tend to only involve the captain + security while the rest of the crew is not even sure what is happening or what they should do.

The point of a middle ground server would be to loosen the RP rules to allow for theses antags. And adjustments can be made here and there. Less frequency of round end mode antags while still allowing for them to happen from time to time without admin intervention. Or turning some of them into late join/sleeper roll antags. Surprise its been 45 minutes and you are now a rev leader or a couple of blobs spawn, etc...

And would players interested in that sort middle ground experience even complain about having a quick 20 minutes blob/nukie/rev round from time to time in beetween full lenght rounds where the antags are doing gimmicks that 90% of the station is going to miss ? I'd like to think not. The current RP server seem to like the rare admin nukie rounds, as awkward as they tend to be.

Then again Classic with the "please do a bare minimum of RP and don't be a boring powergamer" rules enforced could be kinda like that. But it seems it wouldn't be "classic" anymore for some.

[meaow589]

Why not try it on goon5 it not much people go there anyway and once people join it we might get some feedback data slowly so we can conclude that later.

[Doop]

Personally, if someone feels that classic has lost its core appeal just by merely implementing a "dont be a powergaming ass" rule I'm not sure if I wanted to be playing with them anyway. I genuinely don't think it would be that big of a hurdle for 90% of players to follow these new rules, there's a lot of people who kind of play like this already.

[Cal]

Classic with the "please do a bare minimum of RP and don't be a boring powergamer" rules enforced could be kinda like that. But it seems it wouldn't be "classic" anymore for some.

I mean, before the servers were split everyone kinda roleplayed on classic a bit. You're in a game, get into it a little.

[colossusqw]

I think it'd be good to reiterate something i've said a few times, that is:

- A lot of what makes SS13 fun and complex, the systems that require preparation and interact with eachother and the rest of the round at large, absolutely require some level of player good faith to properly work.

- There is no way to balance this game that does not either expect a minimum of pro-fun(or at least not anti-fun) behavior on the player side, or absolutely defangs or railroads most of the tools that can make rounds interesting.

I don't think we really need a middle ground server, but we should have some baseline for classic that ensures the mechanics can actually be maintained at an interesting level, without the monumental task of keeping up with people looking for ways to make them not fun for anyone. I'm not asking for "please make at least 3 lines of flavortext" or whatever, just "don't just wordlessly make some insane mechanics breaking thing to wipe out half the station thanks" with some kind of "stay in your lane" rule less like RP's one and more like "at least ask people of a department something before breaking into it".

It both makes it more fun for most players to actually be able to goof around and have fun with their time ingame, and makes balancing at least somewhat less of a monumentally restrictive task.

[Zamujasa]

i genuinely feel like the discourse in this thread has run its course and it's devolving into a lot of unhelpful side-discussions (see: rp antags)

Personally, if someone feels that classic has lost its core appeal just by merely implementing a "dont be a powergaming ass" rule I'm not sure if I wanted to be playing with them anyway. I genuinely don't think it would be that big of a hurdle for 90% of players to follow these new rules, there's a lot of people who kind of play like this already.

this is 100% the baseline i'm working from

[cheekybrdy]

there are a lot of discussions going on in here, but the one i have been focusing on is mostly "please do a bare minimum of RP and don't be a boring powergamer" (full legalese to come).

Is there a particular reason on why RP would be mandated as opposed to just pro-roundflow rulings? Little unsure on why these are associated, seem like 2 separate rules jumbled together. I'm more then ecstatic for roundflow improvement rulings but the RP mandate is essentially what makes the servers different, at least personally I'd like to keep that wall optional which some people just perfer.

[Zamujasa]

bare minimum like "make a half-attempted effort to do the basic of your job", etc. please note the words "bare minimum" before "RP"

do the basic minimums of your job instead of signing up as a botanist just in case you finally get to use that sweet red saw type of shit

[Glamurio]

there are a lot of discussions going on in here, but the one i have been focusing on is mostly "please do a bare minimum of RP and don't be a boring powergamer" (full legalese to come).

Is there a particular reason on why RP would be mandated as opposed to just pro-roundflow rulings? Little unsure on why these are associated, seem like 2 separate rules jumbled together. I'm more then ecstatic for roundflow improvement rulings but the RP mandate is essentially what makes the servers different, at least personally I'd like to keep that wall optional which some people just perfer.

To draw an analogy that might help you understand Zamu's rhetoric, if you play League of Legends and you roll Support, you are supposed to support. People generally prefer if the role that you end up in makes a difference for the whole game to function, because if everyone does what they want regardless of their assigned role, then roles or jobs don't mean anything anymore.

We all know that staffies can hack into science, but ideally you let the scientist play as scientist before you rob him of his identity, or otherwise scientists are just staffies that don't need to hack into science, and we might as well give everyone AA.