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A new "Classic-RP" server variant
Hey. So earlier there was a thread that got quite a lot of traction and a lot of mixed opinions on the idea of making Classic "a bit more like RP" in terms of acting out your kills. And just now we had a fairly lengthy discussion on Discord about how people with RP want it "a bit more like Classic" in terms of antag potential.

We have Nightshade servers that are basically this; a fusion between both concepts that has a little bit of everything. And before people say if you like that, play there, this doesn't work that easily because a) those servers are limited to 55 players and b) you compete with a streamer audience and c) you have to pay to get in.

I genuinely think now is a good time to try and implement this as a Goonserver and see how many people play it, how many people like it, what kinds of problems would arise and if it's a good fit for the community. Just have the RP rules active, disable sims, and allow all antags, that's really it. If people don't like it they won't play there, they'll go back to Classic or RP. But if they do like it, that literally solves a big complaint from both sides. Might as well try.
i would rather just implement a "please do a fucking bare minimum of rp here, it is not that hard" on the classic servers, but there has been much internal discussion of what to do, just very little has externally come of it

something definitely needs to change, but working out exactly what is difficult
I don't like having to deal with the level of escalation which feels expected for certain things (I think good RP can be accomplished otherwise), but I also don't like how classic currently operates.
I would love to have that middle-ground server where people will at least be interesting about what they do, but still be able to interact with antags like blobs, wws, nukies w/o having to be expected to roleplay with them all the time.
This has been something I've thought would be nice myself for a while, really, and I'd like to see it happen in any capacity.

Whether it's a middle-ground server or a rules change to goon1, I'm for it. Just something like this, please!!
Agree w/ zamu's idea that adjusting classic would be better than making another new server. She's talked a lot about the feedback loop of negative behaviour on classic (powergaming) creating a culture where that behaviour is seen as necessary to protect yourself from it, and that applies to a lot of other aspects of the culture socially too. I think bringing all the people who don't like how classic is now onto a classic-rp mixed server will just leave classic to get really awful again. But I also don't know how the best way to change it is, so good luck to the admins :___:
Classic feels like one of those situations where if you were given a post-round rating by your players for the quality of your play and consistently your average was 1 bloink out of 10 zoinks you come down with a case of the splode.

I'm being irreverent, but literally every story I've personally heard from people saying "I'm done with classic" has been headlined with "because people were being awful"
You don't want to do RP on it, I respect that 100% It's not everyone's thing and frankly I feel a little like there's many people ON RP servers right now who would just really prefer not to bother either but are having to "slum it" because of aforementioned problem.

So don't make it an RP thing, but put in -something- that adds a cost-benefit analysis to your actions. The potential threat of your server peers noting you're being boring as hell might work. Or everyone ends up with a score of 1/10, but it's an idea.
I think I lean more towards new rule/rules than entirely new server, but yeah, this is something I desperately want. I think something closer to nightshade rules would be really nice, and I don't even think it would be that big of a challenge to adapt to for a lot of people. Personally speaking I just don't have the patience for RP, I find the pace of classic much more fun and enjoy the chaos, but I'd really like just a little bit more to encourage people not to just try to "win" the game.
People have been favourably comparing nightshade's rules, that's true.
I think there has been this desire for a middle ground server with all classic antags enabled and bare minimum RP rules to mitigate some of the least fun behaviors that can happen on classic for a long time now. Its not the first time the idea is discussed.

The crux of the discussion is that some antags are incompatible with RP which I never fully agreed with. Sure you can't really talk with a blob or flockmind, but theses antags still creates situations to enable roleplay with your fellow crewmates. Another reason is that theses classic modes tend to create very short rounds, which I also don't see as a bad thing as long as they don't happen too often. They can be a breath of fresh air beetween long drawn out round where only security get any meaningfull interaction with antags sometimes.

I want to believe that a significant population of the current 3 crowd would enjoy the classic experience if you moslty added the stay in your lane/play as if you want to keep your job rule. Thats it. Maybe the no silent murder thing too but I'm not even sure about that one. Having some form of baseline roleplay boundary within the crew is what classic lacked the most for me, last time I played there.
This is an interesting idea and obviously one that depends highly on how administration feels about it. I don't have a strong opinion for or against it, but I will note a potential benefit. Some people feel as if there's a "rift" between rp and classic, and that they're competing groups rather than just two modes on the same community servers, especially when it comes to PRs and game design but also player behavior etc. Having a literal middle ground server might help ameliorate some of these feelings by bridging the mechanical gap, in a way.
I love classic for it's many antags and variaty in surprises.

I hate the metaing, my antagging getting ignored as a "funny traitor" cause here comes blob player number 2 spreading in my base of operations again, the fact I can just walk around and "kaboom I am dead" and the fact any fun things I try to plan out.. has to be done at top speed since here comes antag #7 about to go rampage!

Seriously I was once a traitor chaplain and 3 times did my chapel get invaded by flock, blob and another antagonist throw kudzu in it. Meanwhile I was trying to gather souls for some fun silly acts.
I don't mind fighting other antags... but 3 times in 1 shift? Suddenly I am too busy fighting other antags then to do my own antagging. It basically taught me: "Get the best shit and fight whatever till you are the winner."
Not gonna bring up classic pop issue, but I don't really get why we need this outside specific people who really dislike motives? Some antags on classic is just impossible to fits on RP rules (Revs, we all know it is revs). Even if you try to put rp rule on, while winning is not the game mindset, god it looks like the hardest antag to win with only a very small chance which I would say it would be an unbalanced game mode.

Also, RP can be chaotic enough already as strict as it is, I can still see the same player doing low scale rampages all over again or people who keep blowing up stuff under the escalation rules to the point things get nerfed or asked to be nerfed. And then, another charm to classic is the fast pacedness, an RP rule with classic gamemode server would probably last too long for people who just want a quick gaming session, unless it is nukie/blob/flock.

Though, gonna be honest, when talking about rule that RP has that classic doesn't, why don't classic have "be kind to other players" rule?
Leave Classic as Classic. If you want to force people to play a different way then you make a new server.
The reason it's Classic is because it's got the Classic Goon rules with antags being able to play however they wish without needing to worry about escalation rules or whatever. Or having to worry about RPing at all.
If I wanted to RP I'd play on an RP server. Not on the Classic server. (Not like I play that much anyway though)
(06-08-2024, 03:26 PM)Emimiyu Wrote: Though, gonna be honest, when talking about rule that RP has that classic doesn't, why don't classic have "be kind to other players" rule?

Because this rule is (was, before people started coddling antagonists) specifically referring to being merciful towards traitors, especially new seeming ones on a server where they can't even stealth behind some chaos, as RP is generally less chaotic.
(06-08-2024, 10:26 PM)KikiMofo Wrote: Leave Classic as Classic. If you want to force people to play a different way then you make a new server.
The reason it's Classic is because it's got the Classic Goon rules with antags being able to play however they wish without needing to worry about escalation rules or whatever. Or having to worry about RPing at all.
If I wanted to RP I'd play on an RP server. Not on the Classic server.
(Not like I play that much anyway though)

and therein lies the problem with posts like this, imo. it's hard to have useful input when you don't actually play the game any more.

the problem as i understand it is that people on classic do not really do any rp at all. not in the sense of rp engagement or anything, but they are not playing a game with other people.

someone made this analogy but it's like a tabletop game that's supposed to be about goofy hijinks and wacky situations and then playing it "seriously" and trying to come out on top.  and that poisons the well for everyone else.

it's like the prisoner's dilemma. if you can trust that the other person will go along with a gimmick, or that you can have some time and peace to work on your own stuff, things are better for everyone. if one person starts to abuse the meta or play to win or whatever, then that chokes out people who are trying to have fun. and so you get the rise of the other half of the problem, and you're left with a situation where the dominant force is a bunch of people playing to win while everyone else is trying to have fun.

if you take classic as a no-RP server (as some people do, instead of low-RP/LRP), then there's literally no reason to pick any job other than the unique gear/innates it comes with. just snip wires in anywhere you want to go, break in and be the worst tider out there. and that's not really fun for anyone but the person doing it.

it's a topic i have discussed at length and i will say have been pushing for implementing a no-powergaming rule, because i definitely see it as a problem. i don't think anyone wants to introduce escalation rules to classic as much as "please don't constantly be a silent/boring murderboner and/or validhunter".
Gotta say I agree with a lot of what Zamujasa has said.  In my time here, which feels like not that much but is actually like a third of the game's existence, Jesus, I've noticed the culture around powergaming changing.  When population was much smaller I remember admins telling people to knock it off when people abused things, somewhere along the line that seems to have stopped.  If it's in the game, you can abuse it, if you think it's bad then PR a nerf or removal seems to be the going attitude these days.  I can see the logic there, even if I don't agree with it, but it makes responding to obnoxious playstyles much more reactive.

I've also noticed changes in how players treat things - instead of responding to threats in proportion to the size of the threat they either respond the same way to any threat or overreact to minor threats while underreacting to major ones.  I get it, people don't want to die and potentially lose their round but what the hell round are you saving by doing that?  If we get a robust rampager pulling out all the stops to kill everyone the response of the playerbase can't be "ignore it and hope they come for you last".  The most robust players on need to form a posse and try to kill the rampager as fast as possible.  We used to do this regularly with good ol' Camryn Stern until one day we just stopped and suddenly he starts wiping maps.

I feel like I'm kind of rambling here, but if we, the players, see a problem then rather than just hoping for a rule change we can hope for a rule change and also change our own behavior.  Punish powergaming and it'll be less common!  There are some things that really require admin intervention (drug cocktails can get fucking absurd), but a lot of powergaming can't stand up to three or four relatively robust people out to smash your teeth in.

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