Kudzumen Rework / Plant-based Antag

[Glamurio]

Kudzumen. A non-antagonist that has a lot of flavor, but brings a lot of frustration with it. They encouraged people to suicide or die on kudzu to turn into kudzumen, They aren't particularly fun to play, and getting rid of them is a weird grey zone. They have similar hall-marks to antagonists, but are not considered non-human. Kudzu can be annoying, but is necessary for kudzumen to survive, so if you want to remove kudzu, that means killing kudzumen and vice versa, compounding the problems previously listed.

This is a discussion for revamping them into a fully playable antagonist that hopefully fills the space somewhere between vampires, flockmind and blob.

What I'm thinking of is a new kind of monster that can turn people into plants or slowly convert them into lesser kudzumen that can help them, because I don't have a better name for them, right now I'll refer to them as Dryad. The basic idea is that they gain power the more they convert organic matter and chems into nutrients, which they deposit in lairs or groves. I'm going to list a couple of key features that could make the antagonist feel interesting.


The New Kudzu™
I would like to highlight some key differences to how kudzu should work going forward:
Kudzu should be more threatening. Seeing Kudzu should feel like "Oh shit!", and not "Oh, huh."
Kudzu should be more contained. Think "building tall" instead of "building wide".
Kudzu should have much clearer, less bothersome methods of removal.

Here's the plan: Kudzu spreading like wildfire is still in, but now, it's centralized.
Introducing: The Kudzu Tree (name not final)
Instead of slapping seeds on the ground, doing so will now plant a kudzu sapling. This sapling will slowly over the course of several minutes grow into a tree. Said tree will have roots that expand while growing, and you might be seeing where this is going. Depending on the size and strength of the tree, kudzu will spread in a wider area. Destroying the tree will cause all nearby kudzu roots to slowly decay over time.

The basic idea is that this would allow the Dryad to create "kudzu groves", small localized zones spread over the station that will act as places where their abilities are the strongest. Kudzu in these zones will grow back rapidly as long as the tree that powers it exists. Saplings are vulnerable, but trees grow quite robust, to the point where taking one down will require some serious firepower or the proper chems.

Nutrients
Kudzu Trees absorb nutrients via the kudzu root. Said nutrients will be used as a currency to power abilities, as well as grow and level up kudzu underlings (see: Conversion). Kudzu is remarkable at absorbing nutrients through a variety of methods, such as absorbing organic matter (corpses, meat), light (the brighter, the better) and even chemicals, such as compost or water. As such, location will both have to be decided on strategic value, as well as how easy it is to grow in said location.

Nutrients are your primary way of "evolution", you get stronger and gain abilities as you use your nutrients as a currency throughout the round. You start with weak abilities, primarily centered around gaining nutrients, and then unlock your stronger abilities later. Nutrients can be stored inside of you up to a small cap, but primarily will be stored inside kudzu trees. The gameplay cycle is to absorb nutrients and bring them to the tree, where you will upgrade your abilities.

Plant "Magic"
This one's fairly obvious, but essentially the Dryad should heavily utilize plants. Kudzumen were capable of this to a degree, but it was a really simplified set of abilities, mostly based on spreading kudzu, which is arguably the least interesting aspect of a plant-based antagonist. Here's some ability ideas:

• "Absorb" - Absorbs nutrients from target object. This could be organic matter or chemicals.
  

• "Entangle" - Entangles a person and makes them either slow down or unable to move. Can only be used when near plants.
  

• "Spores" - Spreads spores that can have various effects, such as being poisonous, causing you to sleep, or be stunned briefly.
  
• "Bramble" - Covers one or many tiles in thick bramble that cannot be crossed. Bramble needs to be destroyed to cross. Requires nearby plants.
  • Bramble can be used on doors to "bramble bolt" them.
    
• "Convert" - Used to entrap people and begin the kudzu conversion process.
  • This should be a lengthy process to encourage doing so in a remote location, perhaps a "lair" of some kind.
    
• "Seed" - Used to plant a kudzu sapling on the given tile.
  
• "Spawn Kudzulite" - Creates a small cocoon that, after some time (and based on ghost availability) spawns a Kudzulite.
  • Kudzulites are the lowest form of minion. Perhaps even AI controlled.
    
• "Grappling Vine" - Similar to the "Martian Pull", except it can also pull mobs to you.
  
• "Heal" - Essentially similar to "Healing Touch", allows you to heal both yourself and your underlings.
  
• "Mutate Kudzu" - Changes the properties of a kudzu tile, turning it slowing terrain or even construct "Plant Turrets".
  
• "Root Travel" - Essentially a teleportation ability allowing transportation from a Kudzu Tree to another.
  

Conversion
A central mechanic of the Dryad should be converting crew members. The way I envision this isn't too different from the way kudzumen are converted, but their power levels should be different. Essentially, the idea is to spawn lesser kudzumen, "mini-kudzu" if you will, and have them be able to upgrade over the course of the round. This is a more unique take on any present antag-conversions and will incentivize everyone to not only provide nutrients to the player in charge, but also doing so will power them up as well.

• "Kudzulites" - This would be the base version. A very small, weak, and possibly even critter-sized plant creature.
  • Limited health and abilities, like just "Absorb" and "Root Travel" to spread kudzu trees and gain nutrients.
    

Mini-Kudzu will have the ability to evolve into different kudzu variants to serve different purposes. This process takes some time, and will cost nutrients. This creates an incentive for Dryad underlings to gather more nutrients both to benefit themselves and the Dryad. When Dryad's convert dead (or alive) humans, they will immediately spawn as one of these, likely by choosing one archetype, rather than a Kudzulite.

• "Scout Kudzu" - This is likely the equivalent to "Kudzumen" as we know them, with changed abilities.
  • Less health, gains the ability to "Seed" new saplings.
    
• "Combat Kudzu" - Combat variant, likely more offensive abilities.
  • More health, gains "Grappling Vine" and strong physical properties.
    
• "Support Kudzu" - Supportive variant, weak but has very disruptive abilities.
  • Less health, gains abilities like "Spores" and "Heal".
    
• "Defender Kudzu" - Defensive variant, slow, but gains abilities to fortify the grove.
  • Regular humanoid health, gains abilities like "Bramble" and "Mutate Kudzu".
    

Finally, the last stage of evolution is another Dryad. This is very costly and won't happen often, but is the ultimate goal.

Combating the Dryad
Now, let's talk about how to fight a Dryad. As with any antagonist that starts getting stronger over time, the main advantage is detecting them early. Saplings are very vulnerable early. Naturally, kudzu is extremely weak to fire, but additionally, acid. Kudzu people are immune to toxic damage, take reduced damage from blunt attacks, but are very weak to cutting damage.

The key to defeating Dryads are by targeting the weak points. Destroying trees will neutralize their ability to use a lot of their abilities and evolve further, as well as cause kudzu to decay. Kudzu also have to breathe, so you'd be able to flush out their hideouts via strategic breaches, at least to an extend. It's also important to note that when the Dryad dies, all other kudzu units and trees will start to die slowly. This means that Dryads have to be mindful, they can turn the tide of a battle, but their death puts everything at risk. If the kudzu manages to evolve another Dryad in time, they will however survive.

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Ultimately, this thread is meant as a way to gauge feedback and ideas. This is an early draft, it is sure to be imperfect. Be as critical as you're able to. Many of the mechanics here might be overtuned or lacking, and aspects of it are scalable and easy to cut if necessary.

[Waffleloffle]

apologies for the most pedantic feedback ever but you're gonna want a species of plant that can actually grow trees for this, kudzu is a dedicated vine

[Dhaidburt]

apologies for the most pedantic feedback ever but you're gonna want a species of plant that can actually grow trees for this, kudzu is a dedicated vine

I mean, you could have a vine-like tree. Just like you can have flesh trees, you don't need wood for fantasy trees.

I really like the inclusion of light adding power to them, since it makes sense for plants, it encourages stealing unused items like floodlights, and could actually weaponize Photophosphide against them very effectively. You could also fight back by turning off lights! It also means you DON'T want power cut off, which is a plus for any antag. 

After reading things over, I'm not actually sure if the dryad is more vampire who places down a seed or something like flock or blob where you ghost in and place down your seedling? Cause honestly I kinda like the idea of being a crewmate who wants to create a space grove and can plan for it during the round before settling down to start the grove (though that may be a bit too much)

Side note, for absorbing chemicals does it need to be 100% water or compost? Or if some other chemical, say iodine, comes into play in small amounts (such as from water bottles) would you be unable to benefit or would you only drain the water and leave a puddle of iodine on the ground?

[Glamurio]

apologies for the most pedantic feedback ever but you're gonna want a species of plant that can actually grow trees for this, kudzu is a dedicated vine

You'll find this surprising, but Kudzu also actually does NOT turn people into plant monsters. I'm sure we'll find some healthy middleground. 

apologies for the most pedantic feedback ever but you're gonna want a species of plant that can actually grow trees for this, kudzu is a dedicated vine

I mean, you could have a vine-like tree. Just like you can have flesh trees, you don't need wood for fantasy trees.

I really like the inclusion of light adding power to them, since it makes sense for plants, it encourages stealing unused items like floodlights, and could actually weaponize Photophosphide against them very effectively. You could also fight back by turning off lights! It also means you DON'T want power cut off, which is a plus for any antag. 

After reading things over, I'm not actually sure if the dryad is more vampire who places down a seed or something like flock or blob where you ghost in and place down your seedling? Cause honestly I kinda like the idea of being a crewmate who wants to create a space grove and can plan for it during the round before settling down to start the grove (though that may be a bit too much)

Side note, for absorbing chemicals does it need to be 100% water or compost? Or if some other chemical, say iodine, comes into play in small amounts (such as from water bottles) would you be unable to benefit or would you only drain the water and leave a puddle of iodine on the ground?

The idea was definitely more of a mix of both. When I started thinking about the design, there's a few things that stood out to me as problematic; First and foremost, defensive playstyles are very difficult in Spessgame, agility is powerful, meaning there's a very thin line between making something defensive enough for people to respect its defenses, but also not SO defensive that the mere idea of breaking in or bothering too is so annoying that you're better off just ignoring it.

The reason I came up with "plant seeds and travel between trees" is because it seems to me that in all likelihood, once a grove has been located, people will generally be able to make quick work of it. So your best bet is to spread out your groves over the map to make them more difficult to hunt down and destroy. The idea of having one big grove is really cool and appealing, but I'm almost thinking that this might go into the territory of Flockdrones and Blob more, and those two combat the issues by one having a massive amount of drones, and the other being really, really robust.

I don't think anything ever needs to be 100%, if anything I'd say that experimenting with optimal chem formulas could be really interesting and would give rise to its own form of nutrient gathering.

[Kotlol]

I always wanted to split the Kudzu idea into two catagories.

1: Antag Kudzu.
2: Botanist Extreme Kudzu.

The 1st one is kinda what is suggested here, but my version was abit more "Flock mind"
With the kudzu strangling and trapping people to have them join the Kudzu Hivemind.
I think this one is better in all degrees then my old suggestion.

The second one is what we know kudzu people can do that is benefical to the station, Namely being very effective botanists that can make more trays and pcs and seeds without any tech involved.

This one I want to make a Botanist unlock. And when the botanist does this... they can grow more things and mutate seeds better... let alone grow "Benefical Kudzu" everywhere that can be used to heal people walking on it, but is needed for the "Plant botanist" to not start getting major thrist and hunger debuffs. (They can survive fine on it, but they would be in a disadvantage)

Now we got two sides of Kudzu split. The plant botanist kudzu is just a "Biological plant upgrade" wich means... antags can use this too to become a "Benefical Kudzu person" and use it for evil.
I would however change it from Kudzu to "Botanic Vines"

It just seems more fun for botanists to try and grow this seed, then eat it and become a "Plant person" with synth legs, organs and such. But naturally have a weakness to any cutting and fire.

[Cal]

yeah this sounds cool

[Ikea]

Nonantagonist kudzu sucks so much and Id love to see it be fully antagonistic. Though I think alongside that the conversion method should be completely changed to where kudzumen pull from a random ghost (ala flockdrone) instead of the person who died on the kudzu to 1. Prevent self antagging and 2. To punish you for dying on kudzu so you dont want to do that.

[TDHooligan]

with the change to 'wide not tall' i wouldn't mind having kudzumen ripped from kudzu entirely and repurposed properly here.

kudzu was a fine traitor item before the plant folk came about, having two plant-based threats to the station that work in different ways is also fine.

[KikiMofo]

I like plant people

[Waffleloffle]

You'll find this surprising, but Kudzu also actually does NOT turn people into plant monsters. I'm sure we'll find some healthy middleground. 

wrong it happened to my buddy eric PLEASE show a little respect

now that I have some time to look at the actual design I think the concept is very neat... area control antags are intriguing and it's giving me hints of blob, flock, and that one unfinished martian gamemode mixed together and flavored nicely as Freaky Space-Plants

I do think this would probably be more effective if you branched out (heh) from kudzu, and also I can't help but think this feels ambitious enough to potentially be a team antag? there's a lot of plates to spin here, and one person trying to defend an area on their own seems like a pretty tall order even in the best of times

[Glamurio]

You'll find this surprising, but Kudzu also actually does NOT turn people into plant monsters. I'm sure we'll find some healthy middleground. 

wrong it happened to my buddy eric PLEASE show a little respect

now that I have some time to look at the actual design I think the concept is very neat... area control antags are intriguing and it's giving me hints of blob, flock, and that one unfinished martian gamemode mixed together and flavored nicely as Freaky Space-Plants

I do think this would probably be more effective if you branched out (heh) from kudzu, and also I can't help but think this feels ambitious enough to potentially be a team antag? there's a lot of plates to spin here, and one person trying to defend an area on their own seems like a pretty tall order even in the best of times

Okay, reading the thread and taking more feedback into consideration, I do agree that this doesn't necessarily have to be "kudzu" related. The only reason I'd want that is because kudzu has some form of "antag roots" (heh), and I like deepening the Spessgame lore by sticking to familiar terms and terminology.

It is quite ambitious, and frankly, the way it's listed, having kudzu start out as a team antag from the get-go is definitely an option, however making a conversion-based antag start out in a group is a lot stronger, and snowballs much harder than having to start from zero. One option would be to either scrap the conversion or simplify it, meaning they stay a specific size, but can make tiny plant monsters on the thread level of handspiders etc. that could still collect.

There's an alternative idea that's similar to the way other team-based antags are structured, and that is to have the equivalent of a Magpie/Battlecruiser reachable off-station where they spawn and convene. This could be a very run-down grove on a dying planet or something like that.

If the antag turns team-based, there's the question of whether or not to make them all equal, or to always have a king/queen to protect. I could see it being really fun and rewarding, but also potentially frustrating if the role ends up in the hands of someone less robust, who ends up killing the entire plant gang.

[DannyEatsCheese]

Do you see this as being its own gamemode or like flock can it happen while other antags are around? Either way i like the idea. Would it also be red kudzu or just the regular green?

[Glamurio]

Do you see this as being its own gamemode or like flock can it happen while other antags are around? Either way i like the idea. Would it also be red kudzu or just the regular green?

Could go either way, ultimately will depend on how oppressive kudzu would become. I would've probably just stuck to the existing kudzu colors, but visuals are kind of secondary.