Make damage knock you out of stamina-stuns

[TDHooligan]

There's a few issues that are mentioned with some regularity in the discord:

• Stun batons are too good for murder
  
• Being stunned is equivalent to being dead - this and the former being the basis to the 'Stun Meta' idea
  

So, a suggestion i've voiced alongside a few other people:
Make non-DoT damage push you out of negative stamina & reduce stun times if you're not in crit.
(from a technical perspective, perhaps directly couple stamina & stuns)

This has a few benefits:

• Stun weapons will be less powerful when used directly with lethals. Stun into a CSaber has the same effect as just hitting someone with a CSaber.
  
• Stamina crits have more solutions besides 'get in as many hits as possible before they get up'
  
• Opens up short breaks for planning & better de-escalation methods (you could even make knockdowns last a bit longer)
  

And opens up even more ideas:

• You can kick up stamina stun times without vastly impacting combat
  
• People might actually talk during combat (as stamina knockdowns aren't as time-critical)
  
• Slow weapons are now applicable without sec weaponry (knock a spaceman down and jam a needle in them)
  

This functionally brings stamina more in line with what I think 'Poise' is in your souls games (maybe? i have admittedly never played them)

[Frolicsome Flufficorn]

Yes... this is a change that is needed. I hate stuns being the better lethals .

And from secs point of view, this doesnt change anything. so it doesnt remove anything from them and mainly focus's around antags use of stuns.

Only issue with it is that it doesnt stop people from stunning into crusher/spacing. But to say we shouldnt add this because of this reason would be dumb, so Im all for the idea!

[Cal]

What exactly prevents people from just stunning you and dumping lethal shit in your face?
What about spacing you?
Throwing you down disposals?
Choking you?
Cuffing you THEN killing you?

Kinda lukewarm on this overall, I'm sure someone will find an exploit with this idea and abuse the hell out of it when it gets implemented as well as the untold amount of interactions otherwise

[Kotlol]

My opinion is with Cal.

Also what are you trying to nerf of the stun meta? Stun overall or Stun on antagonists?

For antagonists it's easy:
Have the security training perk give stun batons their current effect/duration, but if you don't... it does 20% to 50% less effectiveness.

Also maybe add things like being cuffed makes stun less effective in general.
So cuffs = Stun Resistance.
This will be an indirect buff to changelings who can drop cuffs nilly willy... but it makes it more fun.

Also put a lower max duration of stun and I think this is much bettr.

This won't stop most of the concerns Cal brought up.
But by making security weapons less effective on Antagonists... means antagonists have to rely more on their own skills rather then cornering a security officer and jacking their shit to go rampage.

Also if we nerf pure stuns... security will slow transition to better methodes to down antagonists wich will rely on lethals. Infact in some cases I have used lethal to detain players like Arcfiends on Meth cause the bleeding out forces them to deal with that 1st. (Detective lethals by the way)

Anything else?

[Cheffie]

What exactly prevents people from just stunning you and dumping lethal shit in your face?
What about spacing you?
Throwing you down disposals?
Choking you?
Cuffing you THEN killing you?

Kinda lukewarm on this overall, I'm sure someone will find an exploit with this idea and abuse the hell out of it when it gets implemented as well as the untold amount of interactions otherwise

Nothing stops the interactions you have listed right now and most of them are preferred methods of killing people, If anything the proposed idea will help these issues or just not effect them. Having stuns get reduced when you get attacked isn't intended to make killing stunned people impossible just to make it more fair for the person who is stunned, since currently getting stunned can be considered death in many situations this change will just reduce that amount.

[DummySian]

What exactly prevents people from just stunning you and dumping lethal shit in your face?
What about spacing you?
Throwing you down disposals?
Choking you?
Cuffing you THEN killing you?

Kinda lukewarm on this overall, I'm sure someone will find an exploit with this idea and abuse the hell out of it when it gets implemented as well as the untold amount of interactions otherwise

This change is more supposed to reduce the 'stunned = you are dead' thing. Gunning down requires having guns, spacing is surviveable, choking takes a long fucking time and cuffs require cuffs... Getting stun batoned and beated to death by extinguisher is one of the most boring things ever (Considering getting a securiton baton and stunning a secoff with it for more gear is not even a hard thing to do)

[Cal]

If those options are already available I don't see the point in nerfing "just killing people", especially if it'll make newbies lives harder

[TDHooligan]

What exactly prevents people from just stunning you and dumping lethal shit in your face?

The whole point is that when they DO start dumping lethals in your face, you'll get up instantly and have a chance to move while their attack delay kicks in

 - What about spacing you?
 - Throwing you down disposals?
 - Choking you?
 - Cuffing you THEN killing you?

I don't see why you took particular notice of these like this change impacts them specifically - they're exactly the same as before. if the decision was made to increase stun lengths (which isn't part of this change), they'd need to be considered. 

If those options are already available I don't see the point in nerfing "just killing people", especially if it'll make newbies lives harder

Newbies are not the ones rushing stuns to guarantee kills. If anything this gives newbies a second chance to retreat when experienced players get the drop on them.

Right now, experienced players can just land 1-2 flashes on inexperienced antags and that's their antag round over.

[saccharineChampion]

If those options are already available I don't see the point in nerfing "just killing people", especially if it'll make newbies lives harder

This wouldn't heavily affect situations where someone is just beating someone to death with a toolbox or some such. It does reduce the ability to stunlock with something like a gas tank, where it does a high amount of stamina damage... but that sounds like a good thing to me, not a negative. Especially since if you do want to get stuns in with heavy implements, this would lead to more variety than just beat with gas tank until stunlock, namely, beat with gas tank until stamina is 0, then switch to something more damaging, like a toolbox or fire extinguisher.

As for the concern about it making security more lethal - cuffing doesn't do damage, so it would not remove the stun as the idea proposes. If anything, it discourages security practicing lethality, since beating on someone after you baton them undoes the batonning.

My personal concern with the idea that makes me 90% rather than 100% for it is how good disarm's chances currently are. It's a problem that, imo, currently exists, but that this would also exacerbate. Still in support of the idea overall, though, but probably on a trial basis to see how much of an effect it really has. After all, if stunbatons and such are weakened by this, swiping a stunbaton with a lucky disarm is weakened too.

[glowbold]

Too universal and ‘stiff’ of a mechanic IMO. For me, a stun second-chance mechanic should be:
1. Intuitive based on in-universe expectations
2. Situation-dependent to strategize around
3. Explicitly limited in activation count and regeneration
4. Trade an immediate short-term gain for a severe long-term loss.

If I were to suggest a thing, it’d be a new, higher-depletion chemical “Natural Adrenaline” distinct from Epi. It would only carry stamina recovery and/or stun reduction (amounts/kinds tuned for balance) positive effects, and as a drawback it rolls for Shock with chance scaling severely with duration inside you. Tie it to a new Adrenaline Gland organ (chest;scalpel-scalpel-spoon), which would slowly accumulate a small store (e.g. 10-20u), which it would inject some but not all of under the combined conditions of:
1. You are conscious
2. You receive a lot of Brute damage all at once

The amount it injects could be based on the amount of Brute damage sustained, or just a set amount. When damaged, the organ leaks Natural Adrenaline into you (very bad!!! (shock will kill you)).

If you didn’t want a new organ, I’d tie it to the brain instead (e.g. the Medulla oblongata firing off the glands).

maybe that’s too much but i think it has enough nuance to play around

[TDHooligan]

which it would inject 

chem life ticks are every 2~4 seconds (the time it takes to get more than 1 hit in, maybe more if lag is bad) and chem is also not really designed for this use case. 

if this were to be strong enough to actually fix what this change targets, it'd have to give you an insane quantity of stamina. whereby you could exploit all the other systems in the game (kidneys, slow metabolism) to get more than the desired amount of stamina

it would also be purged by any purgatives (which are not related to this change at all)

you'd end up with a laggy, unintuitive, buff of variable length that could be useless for 1 person and overpowered for the powergamers.

all to beat a simple, hard and fast rule of 'someone hitting you will knock you out of stamina stun'

[colossusqw]

A thing i've seen in some places that could be used to some good effect here would be a 'addrenaline rush' effect. Basically that being if you get lots of damage in a short time, say more than 25-30 damage in a few seconds, you get a short 'addrenaline rush' status effect that clears out stuns and makes you slightly stun resistant. This could work really well in cases like a Stun-to-c-saber or even just Stun-to-zipgun, giving you a chance to fight back that quickly subsides again, since the effect has a slight cooldown before it can happen again.

[Lord_earthfire]

What exactly prevents people from just stunning you and dumping lethal shit in your face?
What about spacing you?
Throwing you down disposals?
Choking you?
Cuffing you THEN killing you?

Kinda lukewarm on this overall, I'm sure someone will find an exploit with this idea and abuse the hell out of it when it gets implemented as well as the untold amount of interactions otherwise

I fully agree with the assessment here.

Stuns are so effective because they instantly take you out of the fight.

Antags prefer to use batons because they do that faster thsn antag gear. Yes, two C-saber hits put soneone into crit, but you need 3-4 to put them into deep crit to make them stay on the ground.

This change wont affect this dynamic. This change will prevent chain stunning by toolboxes and oxygen tank, but that would just force people more into using fire extinguishers.

I'm not a fan of the change, honestly.

[Kotlol]

I like to re-itterate if the problem is LITTERLY:
"Antags want stun since it murders faster"

Just nerf the stun baton on non security members (and detective).
Forcing antags to rely on their tools more.

Also if you feel like stun is too op on ANTAGS... then add more ways to combat it.
The fun of the game is to experiment ways to overcome challanges as an antagonist.
If an antagonist is very resistant to stun, then lethals will be deployed, simple as that.

Choices are more FUN for any player since now you gotta decide: "Am I strong against stun or lethals?"
"Am I going to go down fighting or blow myself up and somehow survive?"

Am I missing something here? It seems this is the way to go no?

[Cheffie]

The issue is that stuns as a whole are better than lethals in the majority of cases, not "Antags want stun since it murders faster". Mainly due to effective TTK of stun being very small since you are rendered completely defenceless and it relies on stamina which almost everyone is at around half of most of the time.
The point of reducing stuns when getting hit is to make it less powerful to stun someone and beat them to death without extra precautions or to just use strictly high stamina damaging weapons to permastun after stamina crit. 

Stuns being better than lethals is why antags want stun. The proposed idea will help this issue and is meant to be a small step since changing the underlaying cause will take more.