Hotwired Doors Shouldn’t be Able to Insta-Gib

[Lord_earthfire]

It does not actually take all that much effort to get a lethal amount of power output. Not accounting for gloves, as little as 2.5 MW gives a chance for gibbing, while 10 MW does enough burn to kill outright. Even a basic setup can reach those outputs on most engines.
The other caveat is that you can cant build a death machine in mechcomp in 30 seconds, and that you cant derringer someone from the other side of the station.

To be honest, i think these numbers can be certainly increased. Like 50 MW for guaranteed gibbing with gibs beginning to have a chance to begin at 25 MW. Still, numbers of ~7+ MW should put you into deep crit, even if you don't gib.

This would require to have actuall engineers be maintaining the engine and using it to sabotage and would prevent rouge AI's to simply use a simple charburn and close engineers of the engine and still use the hotwire.

Like i said, a hotwire is NOT the difficult part of it. The difficult part is actually electrifying enough doors (which is only possible with some specific ones, mostly maintance doors) with a hotwire to have a sensible impact. And often this is only possible in time with a rouged AI.

Shocked doors from a hotwire won't kill someone on the other side of the station or within 30 seconds without borg/ai/other antag involvement.

[Kotlol]

It does not actually take all that much effort to get a lethal amount of power output. Not accounting for gloves, as little as 2.5 MW gives a chance for gibbing, while 10 MW does enough burn to kill outright. Even a basic setup can reach those outputs on most engines.
The other caveat is that you can cant build a death machine in mechcomp in 30 seconds, and that you cant derringer someone from the other side of the station.

To be honest, i think these numbers can be certainly increased. Like 50 MW for guaranteed gibbing with  gibs beginning to have a chance to begin at 25 MW. Still,  numbers of ~7+ MW should put you into deep crit, even if you don't gib.

This would require to have actuall engineers be maintaining the engine and using it to sabotage and would prevent rouge AI's to simply use a simple charburn and close engineers of the engine and still use the hotwire.

Like i said, a hotwire is NOT the difficult part of it. The difficult part is actually electrifying enough doors (which is only possible with some specific ones, mostly maintance doors) with a hotwire to have a sensible impact. And often this is only possible in time with a rouged AI.

Shocked doors from a hotwire won't kill someone on the other side of the station or within 30 seconds without borg/ai/other antag involvement.

Well if the nerf is: "Requires super high voltage that requires effort to pull off." or "Artifact generator" then yes. I am fine with leaving it invisible. Though I do wish maybe for some sort of indication like sound or visualsation that's VERY MINOR.

More like sometimes a spark or shock comes from doors or wires... as if someone is hacking a door that is electrified. But very unusual...
Though this might give the reverse effect of someone thinking: "Hey someone is hacking this door! Let's open it and see wh-- BAM"

So I think if we use the electrified door hack animation and sounds would be a good idea.. but at the same time...simply increasing the max MW wouldn't be the worst.

Also you can always electrifiy doors from a distance if you are a DWAINE nerd too. But if you can DWAINE and Engineer.. you deserve that kill.

[Lord_earthfire]

I simply think there should be no counterplay in the situation for a single person. Only for the crew as a whole, where is exists and is very easy (fixing the hotwire or disconnecting the engine from the station).

This whole game is a play of attrition between the station and antags. The crew and the equipment are the recources. And they are easy replenishable by the fast design of cloning/doctoring. So to drain these recources with lasting impact, cheap deaths with gibbing/spacing,  an excessive amount of deaths (rampages) or permanent station damage (aka bombing cloning/spacing the station) are a necessity.

You fall over and hope that your crewmember put one and one together and get the situation under control. The result is you getting unrecoverable turned to crisp with not much permanent damage. That feels bad on an individual level, but is in line with how that works on a macro-level.

So i am all for making it harder, if it is a problem. But i think it's bad when people are able to avoid the threat entirely.

[Kotlol]

I simply think there should be no counterplay in the situation for a single person. Only for the crew as a whole, where is exists (fixing the hotwire).

This whole game is a play of attrition between the station and antags. The crew are the recources. And they are easy replenishable by the fast design of cloning/doctoring. So to drain this recource with effort, cheap deaths or prrmanent station danage (aka bombing cloning/spacing the station) are a necessity.

You fall over and hope that your crewmember put one and one together and get the situation under control. The result is you getting unrecoverable turned to crisp with not much permanent damage. That feels bad on an individual level, but is in line with how that works on a macro-level.

Wow no.. heavy disagree on this... well for Goonstation.

If cheap deaths and bombing cloning bay are a nessacisity for antagonists. Then that's a bad thing in my opinion.
Cheap deaths tend to.. well cheapen the game...

And in classic, if a cheap way of killing is effective. It will be spammed, over.. and over... and over...... and over...
Till it is just not fun and people will start metaing to avoid that.

I think SS13 is ment to be abit more creative then: "Killing people as fast and cheap as possible."
But that's just me... anyway... derailment has gone on too much.

[Lord_earthfire]

And in classic, if a cheap way of killing is effective. It will be spammed, over.. and over... and over...... and over...
Till it is just not fun and people will start metaing to avoid that.

Well, let's say i agree with that, and i think that's already the case. The only thing holding the abuse back are nerfs, the rules and self-restraint.

And this goes back on topic, because of this i would say, if abusing hotwired doors is a problem, make it harder to pull off by increasing the MW needed for gibbing.

[Snowy :D]

It does not actually take all that much effort to get a lethal amount of power output. Not accounting for gloves, as little as 2.5 MW gives a chance for gibbing, while 10 MW does enough burn to kill outright. Even a basic setup can reach those outputs on most engines.
The other caveat is that you can cant build a death machine in mechcomp in 30 seconds, and that you cant derringer someone from the other side of the station.

To be honest, i think these numbers can be certainly increased. Like 50 MW for guaranteed gibbing with  gibs beginning to have a chance to begin at 25 MW. Still,  numbers of ~7+ MW should put you into deep crit, even if you don't gib.

This would require to have actuall engineers be maintaining the engine and using it to sabotage and would prevent rouge AI's to simply use a simple charburn and close engineers of the engine and still use the hotwire.

Like i said, a hotwire is NOT the difficult part of it. The difficult part is actually electrifying enough doors (which is only possible with some specific ones, mostly maintance doors) with a hotwire to have a sensible impact. And often this is only possible in time with a rouged AI.

Shocked doors from a hotwire won't kill someone on the other side of the station or within 30 seconds without borg/ai/other antag involvement.

I think it should also be mentioned that while hotwires may require rogued AI/borgs to be effective, it often occurs BECAUSE of rogued AI/borgs. In other words, you often don’t have to worry about rogued AI because you ARE the rogued AI.

That being said, I don’t exactly have a problem with how cheap or easy hotwire kills are, but rather with how automated such kills are. You can’t use a stun or TTV without actively doing things near you soon-to-be victims, but you can with a hotwire.

[Lord_earthfire]

I think it should also be mentioned that while hotwires may require rogued AI/borgs to be effective, it often occurs BECAUSE of rogued AI/borgs. In other words, you often don’t have to worry about rogued AI because you ARE the rogued AI.

I think that's actually a fair point. Cutting the middle man and the actual effort to set it up is problematic.

We have two groups talking here: the one seeing it from a receiving end and the other side talking from an engineers perspective. And for engineers, door gibbing is actually hard to pull off properly, because you need to go to the doors or need to use an AI. Or have them already prepared via dwaine.

For an AI, it's laying some cable and then just be able to gib via a button.

So, why not make it a specific nerf targeted at AI's?

If a door got more than 1MW on it, the control malfunctions. Trying to shock the door induces a 3 second delay that shocks and bolts the door. The AI cannot unbolt/bolt electrified doors woth over 1 MW voltage on it.

Since AI's don't have to prepare this really, i can see counterplay to be possible and needed. That way, if you see a bolted door and know the AI is rogue, you have a warning of whats to come. And the 3 second delay is there to not be able to have the door be shocked right in your face.

If the ai electrifies the doors before the hotwire, that's preparation and all hands are off. This gives the crew a warning to react.

[Jakson]

Heavily against this. Roguing the AI, achieving a hotwire, and maintaining a high power output engine all before someone can stop one of those efforts is difficult enough on it's own, and well worth the reward. Power artifacts do exist, but those are so loud an obvious it's stupidly easy for someone to walk in and shut it down. I've only gotten hotwire killed (not gibbed) once in 1800 hours on goon, so I don't think it's a massive problem that requires a nerf. I'd be okay with upping the numbers a magnitude or two however, but this would make hotwires on non-TEG maps CONSIDERABLY harder to pull off. Half the time I try it the silicons don't know how to properly use it anyways.

yeah people die in this game thats normal

[Glamurio]

I think they should insta-gib, but there needs to be some form of indicator. Even with indicator, it will still catch some people off-guard, and people shouldn't necessarily be rewarded for a "fool-proof way to kill people" just because they spent all shift working on it.

Literally a couple of sparks flying off it every once a while, or an examine update could be enough to fix it.

[According_tome]

It isn't foolproof you can fix the hotwire and I personally did it couple of times. APC's lash electricity on you or around you, you see people gets buzzed, people yelling at comms(this happens if it doesn't produce high energy), high wattage when using multitool on a cable, all those I mentioned are indicators so hotwires are easy to spot, especially if you have full staffed engineering so I don't deem this as necessary change.

[deathrobotpunch]

Well when you put effort into making stuff you want them to work. If they dont then why bother if it can be handled in medbay with bunch of burn meds. Immature death is part of the game. Most players find engine tedious and not satisfying they just pick the role of engineer to not to do engine or mechcomp mind you, just to do other stuff which is mostly the case nowadays. If players dont find stuff satisfying they just stop doing it. And this happens alot when we talk about engineering. Also kotol if players communicate well enough they dont require any sort of indicator

This is... the... worst... defense... for this what so ever...
But let's totally break this apart on why "communication" is a weak defense on a hotwired door death. And that's just 1 part...

Okay... you are a traitor eningeering hotwiring doors... you know communication is gonna be used to stop mass murdering.
So block the signal... With a signal blocker or two. So communication suddenly means nothing.
Or time it with a solar flare so no one can access general channels.

As rubberats points out. It's not that hard to do a hotwiring... it can take as much as 30 seconds acording to him. I am not a mech comp or engineer main but... he seems to note that hotwiring is pretty powerful.

Next up the WORST part of your reasoning:
"No one will play engineering if they can't hotwire murder players."

....You know why this sounds bad right? You make it sound like everyone who wants to roll engineering wants to murder a lot of people with a cheap and easy tactic.
So... guess what? 90% of the time... engineers can't do this since they AREN'T ANTAGONISTS THAT ROUND.
If hotwire murdering is a "CORE ESSENCE" to play Engineering... I hate to say this but... it means most of the time engineers will end up cryoing or not doing anything else.
It's like chemists only playing chemistry to Saryn bomb the station,insted of doing fun things that benefit the station too?

If hotwiring can't kill players at all or have a visual indicator to show you will die touching this door... is LITTERLY keeping people to playing Engineering... then the whole department is just bad at that point and needs serious reworking.
There is more to antagonist engineering then "HOTWIRE MURDER"
Same as Traitor Scientists having more options then "TTV Bombing"

I have one solution, get insulated gloves my guy

[Kotlol]

I have one solution, get insulated gloves my guy

Hmm you are right.. I should get insulated gloves every round despite me not having access to it as some classes to avoid being hotwired.

And I should probably steal armor and batons from security so I can fight nukies and all antags and be strong against bombs.

And I should totally do genetics to get empowered thermal resistance and other good buffs.

And---

Here's the thing about that kinda thinking... if I don't wanna be hotwired as a normal player and I do not have access to insul gloves. I have to steal it or beg someone for it. If I don't get it.. I will try to steal one right? 
Now imagine every players who doesn't have insuls doing it.

Also this 100% ignores the OP's main problem too.
"Spawning from cryo, walking towards the 1st door and getting hotwired disintergrated."
It's a rare thing...but there is no way in hell the OP was gonna have insuls unless they were able to be an engineer.

We already have a problem with gas masks being missing all round or taken by security to avoid being gas knocked out. Getting insuls to solve a hotwire kill problem... will make that happen more often. Imagine security, science AND engineering fighting over similiar resources... it just gets annoying.

Sometimes a small indicator that's easy to miss is a fine mechanic to avoid cheap death situations... cause unlike anyone who knows.. some gasses actually are very hard to see in game, but if you look closely without eyesight impairment, you can see it and avoid being knocked out by gas.

[StaringGasMask]

Thing is insulated gloves are already rushed by most people. I am against this change, especially considering the powers needed for an instagib aren't common at all, not even in artifact generators, and hotwires are often discovered before they can be weaponized.

This is cheap, random, and permanent, but so is a TTV, and that's arguably even worse, because you don't even have to be particularly competent to blow half the station up, the formula for a decent TTV is always the same, and you have telesci, which means you can kill several more people, case way more disarray, and even force a shuttle call without ever leaving your department.

A gib hotwire needs a lot of setup, and if you're caught, expect to be unable to pull it off for the rest of the round.