[CLOSED PR] Removes numbers from health scanners on RP

[aloe]

Math:
Thresholds for specific damage types:
0 : NONE
1 - 25 brute/burn, 1 - 50 tox, 1 - 75 oxy: MINOR
25 - 50 brute/burn, 50 - 100 tox, 75 - 150 oxy: MAJOR
50 - 100 brute/burn, 100 - 200 tox, 150 - 300 oxy: SEVERE
100 - 200 brute/burn, 200 - 400 tox, 300 - 600 oxy: FATAL
after that it gets into lethality multipliers which are only really relevant if you got zapped by an APC or took a hundred glass shards to the face

Thresholds for overall health:
90% or above: HEALTHY
60% or above: INJURED
0% or above: SIGNIFICANTLY INJURED
-60% or above: SEVERELY INJURED
-180% or above: CRITICALLY INJURED

The overall ones are very approximate because the game does some wack ass math which weights damage types differently- I account for that in the specific-damage-type descriptions, but I can't account for it here, so I just estimated it. e.g. 280 brute will kill your ass but 280 oxy is relatively easy to fix.

(The words aren't perfect but that's pretty easy to change so I don't really care if the current ones are bad; would prefer to focus on the general idea of Words Instead of Numbers)

[Meowgical]

Honestly this change feels like a very odd artificial one that is only going to make medbay harder. We’ve had some good changes like SR and cloning but this one I just don’t see the point of admittedly? 
It’s specifically made because of a dislike of a certain rp style that uses a quantified version of damage taken. Which in a sci-fi game I don’t mind because I can see a futuristic quantification of injury but also from just this is a game perspective it’s very easy to automatically read and understand. 
What is fatal? What is major? What is minor? What are the ranges for this? At what point do you cut off each amount of damage before it goes into the next category, and what defines these markers differently from each other especially between fatal and major. 
If you have the exacts we’ll how will someone in game now this off the bat. Are the ranges between each set large? 
We use flying text too, so it’s no doubt going to be easy to miss with the overhead text. 
It essentially replaces an easy to read and understand system based on numbers to well. Vague text? Which just would make medical artificially more difficult and overall very confusing. And then you have the issue of switching from classic to RP and at that point, you’d have to wonder why? It’s just a odd break between the two styles that feels disorienting or simply annoying.
Ideally in RP your doctor will say this is major beating or bruising or etc etc., but if not… that’s simply their rp style id say and people who dislike it and play doctor can use something else. Because the proposed change is for all players and not just a few and would get rid of a system that is working fine imo? 


Lot of text lot of words so tldr: it’s odd and feels unnecessary

[Roddy]

Not against the change itself, but against how it’s being applied. I’d rather it only work this way for people without medical training, or for non upgraded health analyzers.

Making doctors lives harder for the sake of realism falls into the same category of “add more precursor chemicals to chemistry for realism”, and we don’t really do that either.

[Freekingamer]

I think the change is alright for the outside booths and the sleeping booths, but not the hand analyzers. Maybe if the numbers were an upgrade, I would be more behind the change, but as it stands, it is change just to make life harder for the doctors to treat people. If, presay I got 5 people all very hurt, and I am the only doctor, I need the numbers to know who needs treatment first, while the others can wait. Further more, just having the words, with no way around it, feels like making someone do a style of RP that they may not want to, some people like the extra RP, others want to treat the person so they can get back to what they where doing. Which is why it should be optional for people to have the words, or the numbers. In a form like a upgrade for the analyzers, so people can keep the numbers, while others can have the words. This is just how I feel about it

[Frank_Stein]

the "problem" as i understand it is that people in-game are using discreet numbers instead of being more vague or "role playing" harder about the actual extent of one's injuries. i feel this is an extremely heavy-handed "solution" to that problem that solves it by making everyone's jobs worse.

Heaven forbid we're reminded that we are playing a game :P

My immersion!

Personally I don't see it as being that big a deal either way: One system spits out a precise number, the other gives a general range, but either way you're going to know which areas need attention. I don't see either system being better or worse for Role play, but maybe it's because I don't care if the glass is half full or 50% empty.

[RubberRats]

Personally not convinced the issue that this change addresses needed to be solved. This seems like mostly a thing that happens with new players, and making the medical system more obtuse would likely hit them the hardest.

One of the major draws Goon RP has over other RP servers is that the minimum standard is very approachable. There is no 10+ pages of required lore reading. The RP-specific rules are half a page. GoonRP is great in part because you aren't pressured into following a rigid standard operating procedure. Instead, people engage with and grow into it at their own pace. I know that if I had been immediately thrust into a more involved RP environment, I would have bounced off it early on. Doctors just going "you have 30 brute" and mendering will mature out of it given enough time. I feel like this change is a step in the wrong direction.

[Chatauscours]

I honestly oppose such change.
I do not think there is an issue with this in the numbers on RP in the first place, but, even if such issue exists and I don't see, I do not think that scrapping the numbers entirely is a good idea, since it might lead to doctors working their ass off to try and SR someone who has 5+10**7 levels of damage, alas, in vein.
More over, in my opinion, IC-wise people with medical training should already be able to see that the guy is Critically burned / injured / i suffocating without the need to use a medical scanner. (Because they are medical professionals that know that 28 stab wounds= guy has critical brute)

If anything, it could be interesting implementing the system on the "Floor" scanners that are in front of medbay so people use it as a general indicator of their health instead of a full scale medical scanner.

[Petey]

I honestly can't think of anything that hasn't already been said in opposition of this PR. As someone who's been bopping around in medbay for a couple of years, I don't quite understand what this is supposed to remedy even after some of the explanations - countering an interaction that I've seen less than a handful of times regarding numerical values? The numbers take the guess work out of medbay and make it easier for players (new or old) to understand how well chemicals/medicines tackle damage and at what rate. Implementing something like this will only lead to more doctor pileups on single patients and more medical waste. Neither being great for RP.

If this absolutely has to be changed, there's already been a couple of reasonable suggestions on how to apply it. Do it for those without the medical training trait, the public floor scanners, or even basic health scanners without the upgrades.

[Zamujasa]

Thresholds for overall health:
90% or above: HEALTHY
60% or above: INJURED
0% or above: SIGNIFICANTLY INJURED
-60% or above: SEVERELY INJURED
-180% or above: CRITICALLY INJURED

This is several measures worse than what you get from just wearing ProDoc goggles (which gives you the standard 100-80-60-40-20-0 heart icon).

[Silent Majority]

This feels like a player issue.

Further, it..

Okay.

In the past years chem groups where removed chems made less effective cryo made less effective puritan reviving made impossible borgs made less power efficient cloning made worse crit made deadlier rot made harder to get around and now we speak of making health scanners less effective.

If the team thinks medbay is too good or death and injury too easy to get past i think at this point an entire re-evaluation of our entire combat systen and health system needs done rather then continuing a death of a thousand cuts to an entire department.

I think most people are aware i generally near religiously side with the server direction and WHILE I THINK this change has some merit i feek it needs more discussion

What if prodocs where like mesons ans could be flipped on or off and this was the feedback, for example, but hand scanners gave the same. Best of both worlds

[Zamujasa]

prodocs already require an upgrade to show actual health information; the non-upgraded versions that typically spawn only show the heart overlay and provide no benefits on examining people

i'm not sure why you would ever want to disable prodoc glasses, especially when you can just take them off if needed. there are no downsides to wearing them over not

[TDHooligan]

zamu's pretty much covered everything here.

you're a newbie doctor, hit a tox victim with charcoal. the TOX sits at 'MAJOR'. It stays at 'MAJOR'. why isn't the charcoal helping? are they stable, healing or dying?

you're a chemist, checking your drug's safety: you're no longer certain if you can take it two/three times without dropping dead.

- it's obfuscating information that doctors can use to actually fine-tune their treatment (which is certainly not the path of doctoring that really needs nerfing)
- it's encouraging the old, wasteful "just hit em with everything til its fixed" doctoring. which is a thing automenders were specifically designed to fix.

why dont you handle an RP hypernerd problem with RP hypernerd solutions. like giving it a stupid sci-fi name rather than %? Randomly generated doctor health indices. The <prefix-suffix> Health Index. now the callouts are 'health index at 59%', 'TOX grade is 41.2'.

If it were a problem that impacted gameplay (like neuro lings making roleplay impossible) you'd give it a gameplay solution, but this has a whole tizzy of balance and QoL implications for what is essentially "people are making health callouts in a way that is not fitting for the level of RP some people like"

[Silent Majority]

prodocs already require an upgrade to show actual health information; the non-upgraded versions that typically spawn only show the heart overlay and provide no benefits on examining people

i'm not sure why you would ever want to disable prodoc glasses, especially when you can just take them off if needed. there are no downsides to wearing them over not

I basically meant removing the heart overlay. And then giving these statuses to prodoc examine  i like the IDEA of the no numbers i just don't know the execution. 

I actually know basically nothing about the prodocs. My year in medbay i was nearsighted so never wore them...i was just wondering if the no numbers colored text could be a part OF examine.

The only person who uses prodocs is medical, and the only ones who use non upgraded scanners are usually secoffs and miners using medikits

[DioChasek]

Yeah do not like this change at all. Easiest solution in my opinion is don't like numbers in my rp don't say the numbers in rp. Meanwhile those who are new to the game entirely get another wrinkle to make the game more inaccessible.

[Soleil]

I'm aggressively neutral on this. Zamujasas points are very good and people have brought up a lot of fair criticism. Obfuscating values will make the new player experience more difficult, as you won't know if your medicines are increasing or decreasing the value. You have no way of knowing whats going on, so might as well dump them full of charcoal and menders to speed up the change from FATAL to something lesser.

That said, I'm not against a change to the way the analyzers display their information. Nobody is 100% healthy. 40 brute and 40 toxin aren't equally severe. Brain damage is often missed by new players. It's all very handwavey.
We don't need to overhaul the way damage and the health system works by any means, but giving them RP hypernerd units as TDHooligan suggested is at least a good start to alleviate the gamerspeak symptom. People won't go around shouting "HELP I HAVE 200 BRUTE" and ruin your immersion if we change how its displayed.

Oxygen saturation is already a medical measurement and is close to 100% for healthy individuals, so we can just steal that and simplify it. 100% is good, 0% is bad and negative is really bad. Don't like having negative percentages but showing a 0% while their oxy damage keeps getting worse is probably no good. 
For toxins we can probably just use a scifi term that measures damage caused by toxins, since I don't know any good scales or measurements. 
Brain damage I'd really like to either be part of the main health scanner damage values, or at least show up bigger and with less obfuscation. 

(now if we want to nerf health analyzers for RP and make people use penlights and stethoscopes, then I'm interested, lets give analyzers long action bars and require use on different parts of the body for specific info)