about new cloning changes

[Silent Majority]

I feel the cloning should never cause a fault on first clone. Because as said, it punishes the person who died. I once got xloned after being suicide bombed wordlessly. A random jani9 t stole my gun id and headset. I was missing a lung andncould only speak in a whisper. It took 25 minutes to get my surgery done because I was ignored. It took another 20 tonhunt down the janitor

I feel like once is a mistake, yes. But it feels immensely punishing. Why have cloning if its gonna take 15-30 minutes to get out of medbay?

The cloning change has created a waiting simulator.

[Kotlol]

I feel the cloning should never cause a fault on first clone. Because as said, it punishes the person who died. I once got xloned after being suicide bombed wordlessly. A random jani9 t stole my gun id and headset. I was missing a lung andncould only speak in a whisper.  It took 25 minutes to get my surgery done because I was ignored. It took another 20 tonhunt down the janitor

I feel like once is a mistake, yes. But it feels immensely punishing.  Why have cloning if its gonna take 15-30 minutes to get out of medbay?

The cloning change has created a waiting simulator.

I said the same, 1st cloning should be "Free"
People die easily in classic for NO FAULT OF ANYONE. Just a very sudden antagonist attack like that. You didn't know they were a traitor and such.

So now medbay is "punished" in this situation for nothing they did wrong cause they can't doctor someone who died in an explosion.
And they have to fix someone due to this, forocing them to doctor wich takes longer and now it stacks.
So if anything the healing/doctoring to avoid someone dieing is now moved to another form...

So yea.. if anything it just moves the problem to "I'll fix it later" and "punishes those who get insta killed"
NOT MEDBAY!

[NanoDano]

I dont think you should come out with legs for arms or anything like that on the first clone, sometimes death is just unavoidable and it makes it worse when you have to sit around for a doctor to come by and fix you. First clone should just result in weird mutations that can be fixed with some mutadone.

[CalliopeSoups]

My main thought on the cloning defect thing is I really dislike being cloned as a pug, I dunno if it was picked out as a balance thing specifically but I'd rather it removed from the pool personally.

[Lord_earthfire]

What could be added into the pool would be sone rsther neutral modifiers to dilute the pool. Like turning your blood teal or changing your haur colour.

Annoying, but amusing stuff.

[Silent Majority]

Hey, I am necroing this.

Currently the cloner can, on first clone, give Dsyprhaxia or Two Left Feet, or Clumbsy, permanently.

For certain jobs, these efferctively just end your round. Like a doctor or security officer or engineer or..just about anything with dsyprhaxia because it turns you into a clone.

I've been on the recieving ends of both of these recently and its incredibly disheartening to be given a flaw that makes you unable to function in your job at all that there is no way to cure and no way to bypass.

Agian I understand the idea of cloning being more dangerous and less reliable, but, if this is the case we need to have a DNR while in the clone pod option or something. Because those traits are so incredibly punishing to deal with and on a first clone I'd rather it just have set me to puritan and killed me then come back unable to actually do my job, since I sorta play for the fun of doing the job. Being hampered or being slowed down or held back is fine.

[Kotlol]

Hey, I am necroing this.

Currently the cloner can, on first clone, give Dsyprhaxia or Two Left Feet, or Clumbsy, permanently.

For certain jobs, these efferctively just end your round. Like a doctor or security officer or engineer or..just about anything with dsyprhaxia because it turns you into a clone.

I've been on the recieving ends of both of these recently and its incredibly disheartening to be given a flaw that makes you unable to function in your job at all that there is no way to cure and no way to bypass.

Agian I understand the idea of cloning being more dangerous and less reliable, but, if this is the case we need to have a DNR while in the clone pod option or something. Because those traits are so incredibly punishing to deal with and on a first clone I'd rather it just have set me to puritan and killed me then come back unable to actually do my job, since I sorta play for the fun of doing the job. Being hampered or being slowed down or held back is fine.

Fair Necroing. Things like being turned into a Bovine Person or Roach Person is fine I guess... but I still hold my thoughts with "Let the 1st cloning be free"
People in SS13 can die in many ways without it being their fault or through discovery.
And I do believe Goon is a server that relishes in trying out stuff and dieing hilariously.

But as mentioned here. Unless there are ways to do your job with these handicaps.. these downgrades are just round ending.
Especially when dieing to RANDOM ACCIDENTS or ANTAG BOMBING.

Creative killing is great, but you will be sour if you die and being cloned means you can't do your job anymore. "It is a fate worst then death"

[RelentlessGarbage]

I've been lucky enough not to have to experience any of the more serious defects when I've been cloned, but I'd say that if there was a means through gameplay where the cloner would have a greatly reduced chance of producing defects in a clone (perhaps preventing any defects on the first clone), I'd have no problems with cloning defects. As it stands, if you get a bad roll in cloning and get a defect, there's nothing that could have been done to prevent that (besides not dying, which can be particularly hard to avoid in Goon 1). If the existing cloner upgrades were able to reduce this, or a new upgrade that specialized in improved cloning outcomes was added, then there'd be more nuance to the current system.

There are, of course, other ways of reviving people, such as with Strange Reagent or borging - although many would argue that borging doesn't count as a revival due to the restrictions that come with it - but given that the cloner is the single most critical piece of medical equipment due to its ability to revive people, preventing it from severely punishing its users seems like a good idea. More defects following successive instances of cloning is good, but I'd advise that the first one should be limited to minor, simple-to-resolve defects. In my experience, by the time you're getting cloned, the station is already mid-crisis and the doctors have next to no bandwidth to treat you, so clones should be able to resolve their defects without requiring something involved like surgery.

Also, to clarify: can the negative genetic traits that the cloner gives you be cured through genetics? Not saying that forcing genetics to deal with you after a bad clone is a great solution, but if that was a viable option then we might opt to lean into ways of streamlining that process so that dealing with the cloning defects is not so bad.

[Silent Majority]

I've been lucky enough not to have to experience any of the more serious defects when I've been cloned, but I'd say that if there was a means through gameplay where the cloner would have a greatly reduced chance of producing defects in a clone (perhaps preventing any defects on the first clone), I'd have no problems with cloning defects. As it stands, if you get a bad roll in cloning and get a defect, there's nothing that could have been done to prevent that (besides not dying, which can be particularly hard to avoid in Goon 1). If the existing cloner upgrades were able to reduce this, or a new upgrade that specialized in improved cloning outcomes was added, then there'd be more nuance to the current system.

There are, of course, other ways of reviving people, such as with Strange Reagent or borging - although many would argue that borging doesn't count as a revival due to the restrictions that come with it - but given that the cloner is the single most critical piece of medical equipment due to its ability to revive people, preventing it from severely punishing its users seems like a good idea. More defects following successive instances of cloning is good, but I'd advise that the first one should be limited to minor, simple-to-resolve defects. In my experience, by the time you're getting cloned, the station is already mid-crisis and the doctors have next to no bandwidth to treat you, so clones should be able to resolve their defects without requiring something involved like surgery.

Also, to clarify: can the negative genetic traits that the cloner gives you be cured through genetics? Not saying that forcing genetics to deal with you after a bad clone is a great solution, but if that was a viable option then we might opt to lean into ways of streamlining that process so that dealing with the cloning defects is not so bad.

they cannot. Because they also happen on first clonings, this can be quite crushing. I found this out when I died on a minor admin thing from the funnies and then spent a half an hour dying and being brought back to try to cure the dsyprhaxia/clumbsy traits I gained from this. I think you could probably avoid it by cutting their head off then attaching it to another body then SRing it, but that still feels..wrong?

Like Kotol said. Some of these traits just make you no longer able to play the job you wanted, which turns into the whole 'permanent death' thing. I got fairly frustrated on the round the dsyphraxia hit me AGAIN because there was a mindhacked captain. When they caught me and told me they didn't want to kill me because the mindhacker just wanted to keep me imprisoned the entire round (Another fate worse then death aside) I suicided. I hit dnr, I think, before cloning was started but then I just came out with dsyphraxia clumsy and I was blind.

If we're going to have permanent unstoppable and unchangable negatives which prevent us from functioning, we should get a pop up for our incoming flaws so we can just hit Nope and die in the pod and set dnr or something.

I am fine for playing and all but a permanent and incurable removal of my ability to not have clown genetics would make me rather just sit out the round. If I wanted to be a clown I'd roll clown. If being a clown was inflicted on me by others or fault of my own I'd suicide to not be a clown. Having the choice forced on me feels like we've gone all the way back to the 'cloned human' bug.

I also thought I heard that first cloning wasn't supposed to be negative anymore?

[Zamujasa]

as far as i'm aware the first clone does not have any major defects but still rolls at least one minor defect.

[Silent Majority]

ah right. Dsyphraxia and clumsy or two left feet feel like they should be major defects. Maybe just a wrong flag somewhere.

[Lord_earthfire]

ah right. Dsyphraxia and clumsy or two left feet feel like they should be major defects. Maybe just a wrong flag somewhere.

Were they bound to a gene it randomly adds or non-gene bound.

I don't think something should be classified major defect if a mutadone pill or a trip to the gene-scanner (which should solve reinforced genes) solves it easily. If it is independing on an active gene i agree with that accessment, though.

[Kotlol]

ah right. Dsyphraxia and clumsy or two left feet feel like they should be major defects. Maybe just a wrong flag somewhere.

Were they bound to a gene it randomly adds or non-gene bound.

I don't think something should be classified major defect if a mutadone pill or a trip to the gene-scanner (which should solve reinforced genes) solves it easily. If it is independing on an active gene i agree with that accessment, though.

Considering how Silent was saying it... it felt like mutadone/genetics couldn't solve it.

If it can.. then this whole thing was a non issue. I never felt needing to ask more about this since it seemed like it became "hard baked" into the charater.

[Silent Majority]

It was a trait genetics couldn't fix it

[Kotlol]

It was a trait  genetics couldn't fix it

Yea then it has to go or needs an item to make sure this stuff doesn't make you a hazard or impossible to do a job.

Kinda like blind has the VISOR, Deaf has the AUDITORY SET and No legs has wheelchairs.
If those traits have an item in medbay to make sure you don't drop any... that would make this a fun thing for doctors to fix.
But at the moment it sucks