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A serious discussion about the state of monkeys
#1
I've openly discussed my opinion in various channels before, such as Discord or other threads pertaining to partial issues of this, but I'd to take another stab at a proper, universal discussion about the current state of monkeys, where people would want them to be, which parts of it should be changed or otherwise amended, and how we can find a solution that will make everyone happy (spoiler, that solution doesn't exist).

For the sake of clarity, let me list a couple (hopefully) objective statements about monkeys, as well as their implications:

- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
- - This makes monkeys harder to hit / better at combat scenarios

- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
- - This makes monkeys more mobile and harder to trap

- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
- - This makes monkeys reliant on a translator

- Translators occupy the mask slot
- - This makes monkeys unable to both speak and use internals

- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
- - This requires people to use genetics to become monkeys (or be Test Subject)

Now, whether or not you like any of this, these are the facts about monkeys. What I'd like to do is break down each of these components, why they are in the game, and answer the simple question "Should they remain in the game?". There are a lot of historic or "cultural" reasons as to why some of these exist, and I believe it's important to review each of them critically, rather than to simply rely on the basis of "Why change it?". With yet another thread about monkeys, it should become increasingly clear that there's a lot of mixed opinions on the subject, and perhaps this even has to do with RP and non-RP players, but that's exactly what this thread aims to address. With all that out of the way, let's get started.

- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
I don't think anybody can contest that subject, it's evident from the fact that the sprite is smaller and harder to click on. It's undoubtedly an advantage, and has often been cited as one of the major reasons as to why playable monkeys should be limited to some degree. My argument here is, just how much stronger is this advantage? This most certainly seems to be largely an issue when interacting physically with the target, as ranged weapons and projectiles don't care about sprite sizes. What's interesting to me also, is that this would seem to largely affect a non-RP playerbase. In RP it's practically standard that you are both standing face-to-face before initiating any sort of hostile interaction, giving each player ample time to click on the other one to start any sort of action because we typically escalate conflict.

- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
This is probably the other large reason why monkeys are "supposed to have downsides". Again, not even arguing that this is beneficial, it's straight-up an improvement over regular humans. Though what I will say, is that there's definitely parameters to tweak here. If the issue is that monkeys are able to jump over furniture, perhaps we can simply increase the cooldown of said action, or even add that ability to humans in general, but have monkeys be able to do it faster. Generally, I'd argue this is the strongest bonus monkeys gain access to. As for the mail chute access, this seems to be rarely at play. In most situations, antags have the ability to use the regular disposal system anyway, so it's not an obscene increase in power, but for all that I care this is something that need not necessarily exist if it's bothersome to some.

- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
A historic part of SS13 history, and something I wouldn't dare to change, in fact I'd argue that this is a huge win in terms of flavor. It obviously means that monkeys need some form of translator to be able to communicate, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. If anything, the discussion about the point should largely take place around said translator, how exclusive / restrictive it should be, and if there should be any alternative methods of achieving the same result. Additionally, I believe there's room to argue about mutations to allow monkeys to speak human. There's a mutation called "Monkey Speak" that does exactly this for humans (though it's needlessly rare to begin with) and I see little to no reason to not have an equivalent mutation for "Human Speak", especially since this would not be something you'd have at round start.

- Translators occupy the mask slot
This seems to be something that has a lot of people up in arms. Translators prevent usage of any other mask item, including internals, justified at large by the fact that "they are too strong otherwise". In term of flavor, I don't think translators taking up a mask slot is bad, what I do think is problematic is that it's the only way to have your monkey be able to communicate and severely limits self-expression by doing so. Again, this is largely an RP problem in my opinion, where fashion is a lot more prevalent, and not being able to customize your character's face is a definite loss in that aspect. I've mentioned before alternative solutions, of having translators be combinable with masks, sort of like assemblies, or being able to wear translators in your pocket and still gaining the benefit while arguably being "nerfed" by sacrificing a pocket slot.

- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
This is the other fact that's often cited as "necessary" to make monkeys less common because they are so strong, which may very well have been true at some point, but no longer holds any water. Any person is able to easily pick up the monkey race from genetics at no charge, in terms of balancing this isn't an issue. Once more however, in an RP perspective (as well as QoL), this is a huge oddity. If someone roleplays a monkey, they have to waddle over to the gene booth, hoping nobody sees them, so they can "become a monkey" and pretend they've always been one. It's a weird disconnect that genuinely does not need to be there, because as I mentioned before, it's not for lack of attainability. I believe monkeys should be a mutant race that you're able to select on round start, same as any other. You can even make it cost more than +1 if that's the issue, and spawn them with a translator (like you do with Test Subject).

---

Now, the reason I broach this subject is because I'd personally really like to make some pull requests addressing these issues, but I felt like there's little to no reason doing so if there's not at least some form of consensus of what people think. So, let me hear it. I'm sorry for making some of you repeat yourselves, as I know this is a topic that's often-enough discussed on the forums, but it usually seems to only pertain to some aspects of monkeys, rather than all of it cohesively in one place. Any and all opinions are welcome, and I genuinely hope to convince some of you that some of these changes are a long-time coming, even if we have to make them RP-only.
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#2
Pretty sure I speak for most of the admin team when I say that we aren't interesting in making monkey a consistent character creation option in any form.
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#3
Relevant threads:
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=19409
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=19189
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=16282
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#4
also monkey gives something for genetics to do, and Lord knows they need interaction and gameplay loop
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#5
I think you cannot ignore the fact that monkeys are not considered human by AI/Cyborgs(with default laws). While they're not allowed to grief monkeys by server rules, they, for example, don't have to listen to orders given by monkeys, can harm monkeys if ordered to do so by a human (antag) or they could also be collateral damage when following an order made by a human.

While monkeys are not creatable (currently and maybe ever), I've never once seen a Geneticist refuse a simple "Can you turn me into a monkey?" Maybe if people started to abuse this fact and ran to genetics every round start, they would start to refuse it more often though.
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#6
(10-10-2022, 07:21 AM)Tarmunora Wrote: Pretty sure I speak for most of the admin team when I say that we aren't interesting in making monkey a consistent character creation option in any form.

Could you elaborate on why that is? I've had some conversations with admins on Discord about this, the overwhelming answer seems to be because "monkeys can be used to grief", which seems an odd statement when it's a bannable offense. Not to mention, why not remove the aspects that allow them to grief, etc.

(10-10-2022, 07:35 AM)nefarious6th Wrote: also monkey gives something for genetics to do, and Lord knows they need interaction and gameplay loop

This seems more of an issue with genetics, and less of an issue with monkeys. But as someone who thoroughly enjoys genetics, I wholly agree, they need a gameplay loop outside of staring at a screen and waiting.

(10-10-2022, 07:42 AM)Mirodir Wrote: I think you cannot ignore the fact that monkeys are not considered human by AI/Cyborgs(with default laws). While they're not allowed to grief monkeys by server rules, they, for example, don't have to listen to orders given by monkeys, can harm monkeys if ordered to do so by a human (antag) or they could also be collateral damage when following an order made by a human.

While monkeys are not creatable (currently and maybe ever), I've never once seen a Geneticist refuse a simple "Can you turn me into a monkey?" Maybe if people started to abuse this fact and ran to genetics every round start, they would start to refuse it more often though.


True, though there's a weird dissonance regarding how to treat player monkeys, at least on RP. You aren't really allowed to kill a monkey just because they are "non-human", because in some weird sense, player monkeys are technically a mutant race. And you are right that being turned into a monkey isn't an issue in most rounds, though I've certainly seen rounds with no geneticist present, leading to an even more awkward situation where you bunker down in front of their lab in the hopes of someone turning you into a monkey so you can start playing. If this was the same for all mutant races, the lab would be overloaded and you'd see a drastic decrease in usage.
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#7
I feel making monkeys a trait mutant race really would not work with the current monkey and would require a lot of change. Imo monkeys are very flushed out and I don't think we need to change any gameplay-related aspects of them.
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#8
(10-10-2022, 08:10 AM)Glamurio Wrote: player monkeys are technically a mutant race.

They're specifically, by name, excluded from being a mutant race by the wiki, https://wiki.ss13.co/Human. As I already said, don't go around hunting monkeys for your own entertainment. But it does make monkey life a tad more dangerous when AI/Cyborgs don't have to make sure they don't accidentally harm you and can ignore your orders at their own whim.

(10-10-2022, 08:10 AM)Glamurio Wrote: I've certainly seen rounds with no geneticist present, leading to an even more awkward situation where you bunker down in front of their lab in the hopes of someone turning you into a monkey so you can start playing.

AI can do this job remotely and has to follow your orders by law 2. The AI player would have to be a huge killjoy to disallow you entrance to the gene lab for this based on you not having any business in there. It's not like you're asking to be let into some Command office.
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#9
personally i'd much rather have monkeymen be made into a playable race racer than just monkeys

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5B...@._V1_.jpg
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#10
Honestly, if you're doing some elaborate roleplay that requires a bunch of prepwork to make happen and that backfires on you, that's kinda your own fault. "Having to get monkey transformation mid-round is bad for monkey mains" is like saying "having to get 1,000,000,000 credits every game so my rich character is actually rich is bad for me, a billionaire main" or something. If your character concept is so disjointed from mechanics that you sometimes "can't start playing" because some specific criteria wasn't fulfilled, then you probably need to reevaluate that character concept.

Edit for clarification because im bad at wording things: my ultimate point here is that this thread is starting from the position of playing in a way unsupported by the mechanics and then wondering why its so hard and awkward to play in that way, and that strikes me as very silly.
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#11
While I think Monkey sub race being able to be used... I disagree with it. At best start of round monkeyification should cost SpaceBux.. since I seen many monkey players cause problems, BIG PROBLEMS CAUSE OHAHAHAHA MONKEY! Test Subjects especially...
So making it cost Spacebux forces them to do their job or else they won't be able to play monkey for the time being.

But... other wise... removing it.. NO!
I am STRONGLY AGAINST THAT.

Cause A: It's a changeling abillity, this would handicap the changeling.. wich already has trouble getting started.
B: Players who monkeyify themselves contribute to genetics... infact if I am doing Genetics, I put it for sale for 200-500 credits to make a buck, if someone wants it for free I tell em. "you are my test subject then" No free monkeying around me :P

While monkey players cause ISSUES... these are bad players. It's not something players have NORMAL ACCESS TO. If people are being annoying monkeys.... force them to be human and disallow genetics to mutate them. Also A-help em...

Now you got all problems solved...
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#12
(10-10-2022, 07:15 AM)Glamurio Wrote: Now, the reason I broach this subject is because I'd personally really like to make some pull requests addressing these issues, but I felt like there's little to no reason doing so if there's not at least some form of consensus of what people think.

Which issues? Monkeys unable to speak without translator? Translator needing the mask slot? Monkeys having advantages at breaking and entering or combat? Monkeys being not avaible at roundstart?

I don't see anything of this as an issue that need to be adressed at all. These are very specific up- and downside to make monkeys an interesting mutation. That give them their specific appeal. To be honest, i would maybe give them a 1.3 multiplier for incoming brute and burn damage, so they are more fragile to give them a harsher downside in classic but that's it.

And monkeys are 100% not working crew personal. People should not mind them dying from the get go, they are not obligated for services like medbay. They have to prove themselves by being communicative and worthwhile. And i got no problems suplexingand table slam a monkey player if they are a nuessance in my department on RP. For humanoids i rather call security.

In short: i treat them like npc monkeys if i cannot differentiate their behavior from them.

All these things give monkeys a very special role, and this is why i don't think they should changed. I would even advocate to make more mutraces more diverse, because they are far to generic.
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#13
(10-10-2022, 08:29 PM)Lord_earthfire Wrote:
(10-10-2022, 07:15 AM)Glamurio Wrote: Now, the reason I broach this subject is because I'd personally really like to make some pull requests addressing these issues, but I felt like there's little to no reason doing so if there's not at least some form of consensus of what people think.

And monkeys are 100% not working crew personal. People should not mind them dying from the get go, they are not obligated for services like medbay. They have to prove themselves by being communicative and worthwhile. And i got no problems suplexingand table slam a monkey player if they are a nuessance in my department on RP.  For humanoids i rather call security.

kind of weird stance, these are still players regardless. going into an interaction with that mindset is very bad vibes to me
if a monkey player Is griefing you should ahelp it, as you should with a human player griefing

on another note i do agree that their downsides are part of what differentiate them, though i can see why people fond of playing monkey dislike the downsides being more qol focused than mechanic focused. op is very heavy leaning on the rp aspect of this, which honestly gives more room for a monkey player to charades their way through convos in the event they need to be using internals

there isnt much to say about them being a roundstart trait that hasnt been said sooo, ill leave it at that
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#14
(10-10-2022, 09:28 PM)Retrino Wrote: kind of weird stance, these are still players regardless. going into an interaction with that mindset is very bad vibes to me
if a monkey player Is griefing you should ahelp it, as you should with a human player griefing

on another note i do agree that their downsides are part of what differentiate them, though i can see why people fond of playing monkey dislike the downsides being more qol focused than mechanic focused. op is very heavy leaning on the rp aspect of this, which honestly gives more room for a monkey player to charades their way through convos in the event they need to be using internals

there isnt much to say about them being a roundstart trait that hasnt been said sooo, ill leave it at that

I can see how this can be percepted this way. It sounds more harshly than i mean it. In reality, even a little thing like a waving emote signals me that they are most likely nice and it makes me interact with them. But i also had situations, for example yesterday, where a waiter got beaten up by a monkey and i intervened, just to realize after the beating that this was in fact a player monkey (post round, it was revealed to a antag i believe). Even if they weren't antag, i recognize this as valid IC solution to this situation.

I mean, we explicitely got monkeys all around the station as unwilling test subjects, entertainment, mascots or a freaking source of meat. They are not considered human by AI or space law. And we all know how npc monkeys get treated. Even the monkey role is clearly called "test subject". If someone chooses to be a monkey, like with picking AI, borg, puritan or, a more extreme example, breeding cluwne chickens to get cluwnefied, they explicitely consented to the repercussions of this choice. For the monkey, this means being third class-crewmember, right behind staff assisstants.

Last but not least, i don't think any if this is QOL. These are serious repercussions, like being unable to talk without a translator. We don't call the mimes vow of silence a QOL-issue. Like with the mime, the monkey translator is central to the RP of a monkey and needs to be played around. The best monkey rounds i had where the ones where i chosen to have no translator and communicated with emotes, chimpers and screams.
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#15
(10-10-2022, 10:28 PM)Lord_earthfire Wrote: Last but not least, i don't think any if this is QOL. These are serious repercussions, like being unable to talk without a translator. We don't call the mimes vow of silence a QOL-issue. Like with the mime, the monkey translator is central to the RP of a monkey and needs to be played around. The best monkey rounds i had where the ones where i chosen to have no translator and communicated with emotes, chimpers and screams.

This debate been done to death lately.
"GIVE MONKEYS RACE UNLOCK"
"GIVE MONKEYS VOCAL TRANSLATORS"
"GIVE --"

No...
The clown and mime have a similiar problem that they can't wear their masks without internals either, but it was decided that it was in the VEIN of clown/mimery that it was fine. You chose this life. (Similiar anyone who dresses up like the clown who isn't the clown gets the same thing.)

There are alot of fashion choices who get disabled when they need internals.

So I see monkey as a similiar thing, fashion.
If not.. I agree with Lord Earthfire.

There are a lot of design choices being there on purpose to make certain things harder or more annoying to deal with, cause guess what? that's fun/funny.
Alot of things in Goon Station are the way they are cause if you chose this, you gotta deal with it.
Though some things get tweaked or changed for the betterment.

Some things do not get changed at all. We don't see clowns make more salary/space bux cause it's part of being a clown.
We don't remove the tedium of good burns as engineers cause then we get the singularity engine problem.
We don't remove DWAINE from science, cause it's tedious but fun to mess with.
And we don't remove farting, cause it has a gameplay mechanic and is part of Goon.
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