[MERGED PR] Scaling pipe leakage

[TrickyWolfer]

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

Potato power cells are already a thing. Just plug wires into a potato for a large cell or a peeled potato for small ones. Potato cells have a very small capacity that scale of potency, but can't outclass regular power cells.
The real strenght of potatoes is that they are self charging like cells made of radioactive mats. And the recharge rate scale decently of endurance. So potato power already exist. You can replace every APC cell with a potato that will never run out of power as they recharge faster than what most department can drain.

But this has nothing to do with the TEG, so moving on.


I don't have much to contribute to the discussion, as I'm not really a big engineering main. On one hand I understand that pipeburns are a fun thing to do for experienced engineers from a gameplay perspective. But on the other hand from a simulation point of view, the idea of broken pipes usualy exposed to space still increasing in pressure toward infinity seemed a bit silly to me.
So now, engies wanting to pipeburns have to run around fixing pipes. Wich depending on wich map you are on can be a pain. This make more sense from a simulation pov, but add tediousness to the gameplay side.

Also bothering me is the very much unused burn chamber, and TEG electroplating mechanic. The burn chamber simply can't produce anything close to a pipeburn, and the plating bonus are really insignificant compared the the exponential increase in pipe burns.

Reinforcing/Plating pipes look like a sensible idea. But there could also be a type of TEG plating that could help with making pipeburns less bursty, as well certain circulators lubricants. Idealy using some neglected materials or chemicals that are not particularly hard to make or find, but just don't have much use right now.
I'm thinking weird stuff like viscerite alloy plating so the TEG become elastic and porous, taking some of the pipe stress upon itself. And why not dumping THC in the hot loop circulator to help it chill under all that pressure. Stuff like that.

I still have no idea what to make of the burn chamber, but maybe someone smarter than me could figure out a way to make it help pipeburns too ? Like creating an intentional pipe burst inside of it and recylcing the leaked gas somehow ?

IIRC Chambers are used for low hellburns and molitz B input since the atmospherics update, if not siphon and make hot plasma gasses for canister bombs. One really main reason why I rarely plate the TEG is because the scarcity of ores that have high conductivity significant enough (so far Electrum is the most popular choice, which needs gold = rare to find). Plating actually really helps, albeit the benefits are flat, not exponential. Say without plated, the engine could surge only around 10 MW, but plated with electrum it could surge 15-20 MW. On a bigger scale it could really determine from normally EW to hitting YW.

There's a method of pipeburn using the chambers, but I haven't tested that out. But that's a topic for another day. High PTL-worthy outputs right now really relies on RNG (gotta get Electrum, map rotation, and see if there are willing borgs to help) and competency (No comment on this)

In my opinion, this update really eliminates a lot of maps to do pipeburn, thus making the feat really rare and hard. I would say either we un-merge this or find a way to instead compliment other mechanics, something that could make pipeburns more consistent and not relying on RNG that much, OR find another way so that high-power outputs are reproducible.

[Kotlol]

So basicly put the plating of the engine and other ways to increase output is weak at best.
Electrum is rare yes super rare infact.. so getting a flat 5-10 MW isn't worth it.. even if it's technically doubling the output I guess?
But I am guessing it doesnt stack.. it just give 5-10 MW... so at 300 mw... it only gives 310 MW max, wich ain't a good pay off.

I think plating the TEG in different things would be a fun addition to see different outputs too.
But I still hold firm to my suggestion to "Plate" the pipes somehow so they can handle much higher pressures.

[nefarious6th]

Plating is exponential. It would increase engine efficiency by up to 40%, so whatever you're moving through there times 1.4

[Kotlol]

Plating is exponential. It would increase engine efficiency by up to 40%, so whatever you're moving through there times 1.4

Well that changes everything!

[TrickyWolfer]

Pipeburning again to test some strats. I wonder if this happened due to scaling and the sudden burst... Because if yes oh boy this PR might serve way more trouble than first addressed (Map: Cog 1). It immediately killed the CE who was standing besides it.

[Jazzy Blues]

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

Potato power cells are already a thing. Just plug wires into a potato for a large cell or a peeled potato for small ones. Potato cells have a very small capacity that scale of potency, but can't outclass regular power cells.
The real strenght of potatoes is that they are self charging like cells made of radioactive mats. And the recharge rate scale decently of endurance. So potato power already exist. You can replace every APC cell with a potato that will never run out of power as they recharge faster than what most department can drain.

But this has nothing to do with the TEG, so moving on.


I don't have much to contribute to the discussion, as I'm not really a big engineering main. On one hand I understand that pipeburns are a fun thing to do for experienced engineers from a gameplay perspective. But on the other hand from a simulation point of view, the idea of broken pipes usualy exposed to space still increasing in pressure toward infinity seemed a bit silly to me.
So now, engies wanting to pipeburns have to run around fixing pipes. Wich depending on wich map you are on can be a pain. This make more sense from a simulation pov, but add tediousness to the gameplay side.

Also bothering me is the very much unused burn chamber, and TEG electroplating mechanic. The burn chamber simply can't produce anything close to a pipeburn, and the plating bonus are really insignificant compared the the exponential increase in pipe burns.

Reinforcing/Plating pipes look like a sensible idea. But there could also be a type of TEG plating that could help with making pipeburns less bursty, as well certain circulators lubricants. Idealy using some neglected materials or chemicals that are not particularly hard to make or find, but just don't have much use right now.
I'm thinking weird stuff like viscerite alloy plating so the TEG become elastic and porous, taking some of the pipe stress upon itself. And why not dumping THC in the hot loop circulator to help it chill under all that pressure. Stuff like that.

I still have no idea what to make of the burn chamber, but maybe someone smarter than me could figure out a way to make it help pipeburns too ? Like creating an intentional pipe burst inside of it and recylcing the leaked gas somehow ?

The chamber does have a use in fact even in pipeburns that not too many actually make use of.

While it's "intended purpose" may be to heat up the gas in the pipes it works just as well the other way around, anything inside of the chamber during a pipeburn can be heated to extreme levels. This is absolutely necessary when making canister bombs the engineering way as the pipeburn gas is unusable for that intent. And there are definitely uses beyond that when you want to heat up anything of your choice to temperatures you can't reach anywhere else. It's pretty much just a question of creativity. This was basically ruined by this PR though which again, upsets me a lot.

[SenExus]

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

Potato power cells are already a thing. Just plug wires into a potato for a large cell or a peeled potato for small ones. Potato cells have a very small capacity that scale of potency, but can't outclass regular power cells.
The real strenght of potatoes is that they are self charging like cells made of radioactive mats. And the recharge rate scale decently of endurance. So potato power already exist. You can replace every APC cell with a potato that will never run out of power as they recharge faster than what most department can drain.

But this has nothing to do with the TEG, so moving on.


I don't have much to contribute to the discussion, as I'm not really a big engineering main. On one hand I understand that pipeburns are a fun thing to do for experienced engineers from a gameplay perspective. But on the other hand from a simulation point of view, the idea of broken pipes usualy exposed to space still increasing in pressure toward infinity seemed a bit silly to me.
So now, engies wanting to pipeburns have to run around fixing pipes. Wich depending on wich map you are on can be a pain. This make more sense from a simulation pov, but add tediousness to the gameplay side.

Also bothering me is the very much unused burn chamber, and TEG electroplating mechanic. The burn chamber simply can't produce anything close to a pipeburn, and the plating bonus are really insignificant compared the the exponential increase in pipe burns.

Reinforcing/Plating pipes look like a sensible idea. But there could also be a type of TEG plating that could help with making pipeburns less bursty, as well certain circulators lubricants. Idealy using some neglected materials or chemicals that are not particularly hard to make or find, but just don't have much use right now.
I'm thinking weird stuff like viscerite alloy plating so the TEG become elastic and porous, taking some of the pipe stress upon itself. And why not dumping THC in the hot loop circulator to help it chill under all that pressure. Stuff like that.

I still have no idea what to make of the burn chamber, but maybe someone smarter than me could figure out a way to make it help pipeburns too ? Like creating an intentional pipe burst inside of it and recylcing the leaked gas somehow ?

The chamber does have a use in fact even in pipeburns that not too many actually make use of.

While it's "intended purpose" may be to heat up the gas in the pipes it works just as well the other way around, anything inside of the chamber during a pipeburn can be heated to extreme levels. This is absolutely necessary when making canister bombs the engineering way as the pipeburn gas is unusable for that intent. And there are definitely uses beyond that when you want to heat up anything of your choice to temperatures you can't reach anywhere else. It's pretty much just a question of creativity. This was basically ruined by this PR though which again, upsets me a lot.

"The Engineer Way"? I was under the impression that Pipeburns were the only method of getting can bombs, are you telling me there's another way?

[Jazzy Blues]

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

Potato power cells are already a thing. Just plug wires into a potato for a large cell or a peeled potato for small ones. Potato cells have a very small capacity that scale of potency, but can't outclass regular power cells.
The real strenght of potatoes is that they are self charging like cells made of radioactive mats. And the recharge rate scale decently of endurance. So potato power already exist. You can replace every APC cell with a potato that will never run out of power as they recharge faster than what most department can drain.

But this has nothing to do with the TEG, so moving on.


I don't have much to contribute to the discussion, as I'm not really a big engineering main. On one hand I understand that pipeburns are a fun thing to do for experienced engineers from a gameplay perspective. But on the other hand from a simulation point of view, the idea of broken pipes usualy exposed to space still increasing in pressure toward infinity seemed a bit silly to me.
So now, engies wanting to pipeburns have to run around fixing pipes. Wich depending on wich map you are on can be a pain. This make more sense from a simulation pov, but add tediousness to the gameplay side.

Also bothering me is the very much unused burn chamber, and TEG electroplating mechanic. The burn chamber simply can't produce anything close to a pipeburn, and the plating bonus are really insignificant compared the the exponential increase in pipe burns.

Reinforcing/Plating pipes look like a sensible idea. But there could also be a type of TEG plating that could help with making pipeburns less bursty, as well certain circulators lubricants. Idealy using some neglected materials or chemicals that are not particularly hard to make or find, but just don't have much use right now.
I'm thinking weird stuff like viscerite alloy plating so the TEG become elastic and porous, taking some of the pipe stress upon itself. And why not dumping THC in the hot loop circulator to help it chill under all that pressure. Stuff like that.

I still have no idea what to make of the burn chamber, but maybe someone smarter than me could figure out a way to make it help pipeburns too ? Like creating an intentional pipe burst inside of it and recylcing the leaked gas somehow ?

The chamber does have a use in fact even in pipeburns that not too many actually make use of.

While it's "intended purpose" may be to heat up the gas in the pipes it works just as well the other way around, anything inside of the chamber during a pipeburn can be heated to extreme levels. This is absolutely necessary when making canister bombs the engineering way as the pipeburn gas is unusable for that intent. And there are definitely uses beyond that when you want to heat up anything of your choice to temperatures you can't reach anywhere else. It's pretty much just a question of creativity. This was basically ruined by this PR though which again, upsets me a lot.

"The Engineer Way"? I was under the impression that Pipeburns were the only method of getting can bombs, are you telling me there's another way?

There are yes but I highly doubt it's possible to achieve the largest explosions using any other method.
In any case that is off topic, I am starting to wonder if anything is going to be done about this merge though. It is quite clear that the majority of affected players are unhappy with this change and it's been about a week or so since the merge. I don't know if there are players who are genuinely happy with it but choose to not express it, but even so I highly doubt that.
If a dev, admin, or someone else who does the merging/unmerging is here this message is directed towards you, I don't really know how you work but if it would be possible to consider unmerging this if everyone is okay with it I know many players would appreciate it a lot!

[Cheffie]

I too agree for an unmerge if possible, pipe burns were already a pretty niche thing and this PR basically killed all current methods on every map except for kondaru (to my knowledge). Which had others have stated amakes certain things almost impossible, such as the two medals "for your ohm good" and "1.98 jigawatts" as well maxcap canister bombs as all three need massive output or pipe temperature which is just too hard to achieve now.

[Decarcassor]

Electrum is rare yes super rare infact.. 

Just a quick note, but electrum is not rare at all. It takes a few minutes to find gold and cobryl in the asteroid belt. If mining can't or won't help you can swing by the mining outpost to grab a drill and go to the belt yourself.
Claretine is also a perfectly suitable plating material (conductivity of 75 to electrum's 85), wich miners needs and usualy will have on stock pretty early. You just have to yell at them to turn rockbox sales on or have the CE go grab it. You can also buy Gnesis (conductivity 80) for 1000$ at the flock trader.

So plating mats are not rare and don't rely on mining that much, since you only need 1 (unless you want to get fancy and make frozen fart alloy, in which case you'll need... 3).

[TrickyWolfer]

I vouch for unmerging or else we'll be needing a really quick compliment update regarding maintaining pressure in the pipes. Mentioned multiple times, plating pipes sounds like an interesting idea, at the same time maybe try making it less RNG based, especially if there's no miner on board and we can only mine under the mercy of the magnet. Been heating plasmas in the chamber but to no avail since the pipes just keeps on going kablooey. 

Or at the very least please lower the maxcap of leak, probably to only around 1000 max. 40k is way too much, especially with the percentage scaling.

[SenExus]

I vouch for unmerging or else we'll be needing a really quick compliment update regarding maintaining pressure in the pipes. Mentioned multiple times, plating pipes sounds like an interesting idea, at the same time maybe try making it less RNG based, especially if there's no miner on board and we can only mine under the mercy of the magnet. Been heating plasmas in the chamber but to no avail since the pipes just keeps on going kablooey. 

Or at the very least please lower the maxcap of leak, probably to only around 1000 max. 40k is way too much, especially with the percentage scaling.

+1 for this

[DioChasek]

The only positive thing I have seen from this pr is because it has so throughly nerfed pipe burns, apc overloads from hot wiring are pretty much non existent now. Other than that though I can say this pr has killed a lot of the fun in engineering and that department is already pretty light on fun as is.

[TrickyWolfer]

The only positive thing I have seen from this pr is because it has so throughly nerfed pipe burns, apc overloads from hot wiring are pretty much non existent now. Other than that though I can say this pr has killed a lot of the fun in engineering and that department is already pretty light on fun as is.

I can't believe i'll be saying this, but most of those problems are due to skill issue. It's not from the game itself, it's mostly by careless and impatient players who can't hotwire to a new APC for the blowers (not like we can again anyways since the wire update i may be unaware of).

---

I saw a new PR regarding adding cooldown timer before pipes burst again: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/8735

It adds ~30-110 seconds before it bursts again. This PR puts slight relief on me, at the very least it won't be as tedious as right now. But, I still vouch for at least a maxcap outtake nerf, from 40k units to at least only 1k per individual. This is due to the fact that before, no map could even possibly reach that high of a burst despite every pipe for pipeburn possible bursted. To give in context each possible maximum burst:

Possible maps I found that could be pipeburned with all pipeburn-route pipes exploded:

• Kondaru: 8 Pcs -> 8x300u = ~1600u
  
• Destiny: 12 Pcs -> 12x300u = ~3600u
  
• Cog 1: ~22 Pcs -> 22x300u = ~6600u
  
• Clarion: ~25 Pcs -> 25x300u = ~7500u
  
• Cog 2: ~47 Pcs -> 47x300u = ~141.000u (<- This one's iffy, I haven't tested in Cog 2 yet. I assume people would regularly weld pipes here or have their pipeburns climb very slow)
  

I usually don't fix the pipe for just a small additional amount of passive venting to keep pressure in-check. Now, 40k units on a single pipe on higher pressure feels like 2-3x of all-pipes burst normal pressure outtake into a single pipe, no wonder it immediately flubs the burn. A nerf would be really welcome here to maintain pressure better, since we're already dealing with map difference to see which maps could be used as pipeburn/hellburn or not, not to mention which are the ones actually safe to do it with some maps having very poor natural insulation (cough kondaru/cog 2).

[Azrun]

If temperature can rise exponentially I don't see why a constant upper bound is necessarily warranted.

Are you saying that overcoming the proposed upper bound should be rewarded by not having to interact with the engine further?