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[MERGED PR] Scaling pipe leakage
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About the PR
Allows for the leaking of gas from pipes to:
* Scale proportionally with the amount of pressure contained
* Escalate the amount they have ruptured over time
[Image: GasLeak.gif]

Why's this needed?
Give a reason to repair pipes once more optimal temperature gains being achieved.
Provides visual feedback of where repairs need to be performed.


(*)Adds visual indicator of pipe gas leaks. Gas leaks more and will scale with insanity pressures.

Not a bad idea, fixing gas leaks is ridiclously hard in the engine if you do not have magnetic boots since the pressure keeps pushing you.
Also pipes under tables and such are really hard to see too. So more visual indication helps WONDERS!
I think the visual indicator is good, the pipe leak nerf i think will nerf high power burns way too much in a really haphazard way and id much prefer to see a more specific nerf.
(05-12-2022, 04:50 AM)Ikea Wrote: I think the visual indicator is good, the pipe leak nerf i think will nerf high power burns way too much in a really haphazard way and id much prefer to see a more specific nerf.

What part do you feel is haphazard?  What are you imagining as a more specific "nerf"?

else if ((pressure > (4*fatigue_pressure)) && prob(30)) new_rupture = 3
else if ((pressure > (2*fatigue_pressure)) && prob(60)) new_rupture = 2

Those checks can be made more generic in the form:
  • pressure > (2^R)*fatigue_pressure && prob(60/R) , where R is new rupture value - 1

To solve for the maximum R for our current pressure:
  • max_R = log(pressure/fatigue_pressure)/log(2)

max_R is bound to no more than 20, so it extends the original logic to 20 checks instead of the two.  The difference actually comes with the additional probability check which is (5/i) instead of (60/i), which will cause most things to start as a small leak first.  Remember the leak will only get worse if the air is unable to equalize with the ambient air of the pipe segment.

The calculation for amount of loss per leaking pipe is also changed:
  • Pressure loss was previous limited to: 100-300 units per pipe per pipeline tick.  Depending on the burn that is negligible as increases in temperature can be exponential while still allowing for gas to be added to the system.
  • This is now changed blend of 100-40,000 units and 0.6%-13% which is interpolated between: 90+0.6% to 36000+1.3% (at a rupture of 20)
Main thing is just currently hellburns rely on high temperatures which will lead to high pressures inevitably. Currently all forms of temperature growth when it comes to teg are exponential with not much in the way of a limiting factor for higher temperatures. This would make the limiting factor for higher temperatures in pipes molarity of the loop, afterall if pressure is too high then its over. While you could both get an estimate of how hot you think you can get a burn in x amount of time, and then use ideal gas law to calculate the ideal mol count to go in the pipes, I think this is a way too nerdy method to expect most players to both be capable of and do. The TEG is an engine primarily based on feeling it out, so any thing involving it going to high temperatures I think should follow this trend of feeling it out. The ideal mol count to go into pipes is not something you can really feel out. Also its important to note, open pipes will have gas go back into the pipe. While for high mol count pipe burns this is negligible, its really painful for low mol count pipeburns and often leads to burns being unfixably ruined. I think thats something that should be kept in mind for this change.

Personally I do think pipeburns could go with a large rework and nerf, I just think it should be targeted primarily around fart removal. Farts simplify pipeburns a lot and make it mostly fart for 5 minutes then toss gas into loop with a decent mix then just do nothing. Personally what Id suggest is remove farts, make the emergency release pump volume based instead of pressure based, this would both make runaway pipeburns somewhat possible to fix and would make co2 management by draining way more practical and less tedious then. Now that people are using the emergency release valve more, itd probably be needed to tone down/remove the heat transfer from pipes to air. I think there should be an element of instability for high temperature pipeburns, this would have using the combustion chamber for storing heat for when it dips which I think is a cool strat (disclaimer I havent thought about this enough to say how this would be designed, ideally related to gas mixture or something, with a built in swing mechanism to where the gas mixture goes back and forth from highly productive burning to slow burning to the point temperature begins to decay back to slow burning). Pipeburns still need a soft cap of some form for how hot things could get, and honestly I know I had an idea in this regard but I have alas forgotten it. Ideally it should be based around gas ratios or something but the main issue is how do you make this a thing you can feel out and all that jazz, I think something like a scaling increase in oxygen consumption or something but this would have to be fairly tuned to have the soft cap not feel too harsh.
I like the idea of a visual indicator for ruptured pipes from this.

too dumb to have specific thoughts on having to do pre-work math for pipeburns, but TIL about the backflowing pressure into burst pipes. neato.

I guess my only other thought is that the TEG and pipeburns kind of wig new players out (just from what I've seen specifically regarding mentor stuff) because a lot of people understand temp as a factor but not necessarily pressure, and that's most often what I'm explaining to people. not sure if throwing volume in there too, granted I am understanding this right and it would be a limiting factor (idk man all I know is I just run low mol burns, dunno why NT hired me), if it becomes sort of a front-loaded part of the game that people would struggle with more than they have already. It usually takes me an entire round to do the pressure concept explanation thing, and even then, the outcome is often a "yeah I guess I sorta get it".

on the other hand, no moooooore station fires
As far as I know, the pipeburn is the only current way to get a million credits in one round. If I am reading things right, this seems like it might kill that. Will there still be a method to hit exponential growth and make the million objective? There are also a lot of cool things that are only possible at really powerful burns like the gibbing PTL. I would hope there would still be ways experienced CE's and engineers could hit those numbers. It's not just the objective, if exponential growth becomes infeasible there is little incentive to go beyond a standard char burn. The power requirements to make a good amount of money are just too high without exponential growth IMO.

I do like the new sprites though.
Yeah I think it’s time we shake up the meta of pipeburns again, I’d be down to merge this
New meta sounds cool.
There isn't much going for PTLs unless you increase power output so much over a standard engine that for newbies it's unfeasiable.

If we change up the meta as Jakson says I would recommend the following:

- Reasons to upgrade or build more engines/generators.
- Reasons to let hotwiring commence and rerouting it to get maximum profit.
- A little bit more maintance for standard power. (Looking at you singularity engine)
And finally:
- More ways to interact with the engine/modifying the engine. (though this one is more a heavy wish then anything)

- Change engine rooms of "CERTAIN" stations. (I don't like having my plasma tank right next to an engine I want to go maximum power as possible to only have a bad arch hit it and causing and explosion and all my gas escapes)
(05-15-2022, 08:58 AM)Splints Wrote: As far as I know, the pipeburn is the only current way to get a million credits in one round. If I am reading things right, this seems like it might kill that. Will there still be a method to hit exponential growth and make the million objective? There are also a lot of cool things that are only possible at really powerful burns like the gibbing PTL. I would hope there would still be ways experienced CE's and engineers could hit those numbers. It's not just the objective, if exponential growth becomes infeasible there is little incentive to go beyond a standard char burn. The power requirements to make a good amount of money are just too high without exponential growth IMO.

I do like the new sprites though.

Yea. I seen pipe burns entering Terawats.
It wasn't until kind of recently that I found out about this change so unfortunately I am late to the party here.

In any case I still wanted to give my opinion on this one PR since it affects me a lot. I play Engineer almost every round, it's the one thing I do in goon and the one thing I am really good at. I enjoy it a ton and want nothing more than for it to be as enjoyable as possible for everybody who wants to try their hand at the engineering department. 

Now, engineering does involve more than just the TEG of course, that being mainly, repairs, construction, and the other generators. 
To a beginning for any new engineer there's a lot to do and new things to learn making for a pretty damn steep learning curve but still an enjoyable experience for those not intimidated by it all.

However as you keep doing engineering and start reaching the point where you have done and experienced everything a dozen times and understand how it all works many tasks and duties of engineering become very repetitive and quickly you start feeling like a mindless robot. I believe this is where a lot of players drop engineering and why it's one of the less popular jobs on Goon. The TEG and it's depth is what allowed the really dedicated and experienced engineers to still enjoy engineering even after having sunken hundreds of hours into the department. Unlike anything else in engineering it allowed for setups (currently pipeburns) where absolutely insane values of power, pressure, and temperature, could be achieved without much time-consuming repetitive work but still with some difficulty making it more exclusive for the most dedicated engineers.
Unlike the other setups this was the only current setup which allowed for so many possibilities as a result from the outright extreme values, like as mentioned, PTL Gibbing, hotwiring the station as antag and actually having it be dangerous, using the powergloves and actually doing damage, unlocking the 1mil achievement, making entire station-wide canister bombs, the list goes on. 

As far as I have seen so far after the merge is that it's just a nerf adding the repetitive gameplay aspect now also into the pipeburns with the having to weld pipes constantly which takes up valuable time when attempting to perfect a burn, experiment, or running antag and trying to incinerate people with zaps.
It's a huge limitation to previous incredibly enjoyable and rewarding possibilities in engineering. 

Now don't get me wrong here, I value change a ton (the new burst pipe sprite is great!), change make the game so much more interesting to me, but when the change implies adding tedious elements to the only method we have in engineering of doing what we enjoy the most and possibly even preventing us from doing it, then I really start to question what the purpose of a change like this is. Who does it benefit? Who will have a more enjoyable experience because of this change? 

Hopefully we will find a way to adapt and work around the new mechanic and figure out a way to reach the values we want differently. But as it stands right now a lot of gameplay we usually enjoy and have a blast with is now literally not possible to do at this time as far as we know, after the merge, and if we really can't figure out a way to do this without having to weld pipes for 60 minutes then if it's possible to unmerge or have it come under review my vote stands strong to revert the changes. I am sure there is a different way to go about this if we want TEG mechanics changed that will make it more FUN! Not more tedious. 

As a disclaimer I am not speaking for every single engineer player out there, obviously everybody has different opinions and this is me and a few other engineering mains who dislike this addition and didn't feel like we got much say at all in the matter before the addition was just, here.
I don't play engineer really at all. I see the proposed changes and think to myself this is a busy work kind of change, some people are going to love the added fiddliness. What I really think is it is going to push more players out of engineering because whats the point if the restrictions lead to a frustrating gameplay loop where your best bet is to just set SMES pop in some char and call it good, rather than deal with any complex burns because its just too much of a hassle.
Just tried a pipeburn setup that would normally work and it fizzled. Maybe its still doable, but welding pipes for an hour is not what I'd consider to be fun or engaging gameplay. Engineer is (maybe was) my favorite job because it was literally an engineering problem: You're presented with a system and a goal, and need to engineer a solution, with the PTL existing to quantify how good your solution was.

With pipeburns being practically impossible, now there's really no high-end solution to this engineering problem, and I'm not sure why. I'm not aware that anyone really disliked pipeburns or thought they were unbalanced. It was always fun explaining to newer engineers that yes, farting into an air scrubber for ten minutes is essential to an optimal setup, and that yes, the pipes will explode, and that no, you should not fix them. While a poorly insulated pipeburn could cause the nearby area to be uninhabitable, that's no different from an improperly-setup singulo or a powerful runaway hotspot. If they were overused, that was probably just because it was the single viable way to make a lot of power. The solution there would have been to add more ways to make a lot of power, not remove the only one.

At this point the best TEG strat is to buy a singularity engine.
(please forgive me, i created a forum account just to talk about this) (other thing is, english is not my main language, forgive me if i made a lot of things that doesn't make sense with poor grammar)

A regular in engineering here. Tried the usual method of pipeburning alongside other engineers, and much to our dismay, it did not work. I am aware about this PR when it was first lodged, but waived it and ignore until it finally happened.  space bear

The idea of having a new visual cue and scaling on the pipeburst sounds good in paper for non-engineers, but for us, it instead creates way more headaches than what the PR probably originally meant for. To quote Cherman0, so far TEG gave the most power output without the hassle of setting things continuously in a long run (hotspot needs constant effort to stack and create doppler effect, singulo needs to be regularly fed for high output) and 80% of the map in rotation runs on TEG, making it one of the most popular option to create "easy" money and power. 

To run TEG, one must know that higher temp + pressure (+ molarity for the nerds like me) = higher power. We have vents to usually relief the pressure manually or instead use the auxiliary canister hook/pressure tank to brute force it. With the PR implemented, it creates this uncontrollable pressure outtake with the only option to fix it or let it slip and slide with high outtake. With TEG needing high pressure to create power, this will inevitably happen: pipe bursts, engineers fix, pipe burst again due to pressure. Sure, I truly enjoy spending my time in the engine room, but really, it does not give leeway for engineers to fix other calls such as breaches, down APC, especially with the constantly low-count of engineers. Not to mention for the unitiated, pipes will always push you across and around without magnetic boots. It makes fixing harder and possibly kills young engineers with the unfixable-hot gasses, now more intense.

It screws with molarity too with the scaling pipe burst, and thus ultimately wasting a lot of precious canisters to bump the molarity up. Lucky if there's miners ready to mine, most of the time miners are scarce or in no luck looking for the much-needed ores. Combine all of it and what you get is probably constant headache from TEG dying, responses to other calls, and actually dying from unfixable engine bursts.

Granted, there are some people really hate engineers when they're doing high-burns since it could scorch the station end to end (cough sorry for that) but slowly, engineers learn from one to another how to insulate properly. It's part of the high risk = high reward system, with the satisfaction of making the station proud with 1 million moolahs from PTL. An update where there should be more ways to create a lot of money through PTL (since PTL only makes considerable amount of money when reaching gigawatts), an update where probably the entry barrier to run the engine is lower therefore adding crew to help out in the engine, and mostly, an update where skill really rewards you (which is the PTL and GLORRRYY) would be better.

With this update, at least 2 medals went down the drain (Jiggawatts and "For your Ohm good"). Trying with the option meant for hellburn chamberburn (molitz B) is very finnicky too. Ask RD, extract gas, and you probably finally start the engine at 30-35 minutes mark. Not to mention the RNG-based ore collecting and miners being pretty rare (and no guarantee the oxy B could even work). And that is if there's an RD who knows what they're doing. And it loops back to wasting pressure and unfeasible since pipes will always vent too much air at high temps.

I just want to see funny numbers go brrrrr from trial and error. With the new update, my recent experience has been a massive pain, possibly driving away more gameplay around engine. If we really need to buy a singulo/wait for hotspot rotation to create much power, why TEG? The nerf felt too much, might as well set up solars and let PTL collecting dust.

Small edit: clarification and grammar

TL;DR: This update makes engineers babysit the engine too much and really discourage making high-yield burns since pressure will always drop down.
[Image: lR2lNtw.png]

This pipeburn has several holes in it, which I circled, and when I first checked it out was at 25mw, rapidly climbed to a whopping 700mw and was still climbing last I checked.

Are they really broken? I don't see that this has caused an issue here.

EDIT: It took 39 holes in the hot loop and 10 in the cold loop for the engine to stop generating power.

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