Pirate Market

[Ikea]

We’ve already seen what has happened when it becomes meta for jobs to rush azones (ie post hellburn changes engineers) and its not grand, i dont think we want that again.

[Zonespace]

---

-- Do. Not. Buy. Azone. Gear.

I don't get this attitude. Why not?

It encourages rushing azones for gaming gear, which is exactly against what devs are aiming for

[Deadvickyart]

We’ve already seen what has happened when it becomes meta for jobs to rush azones (ie post hellburn changes engineers) and its not grand, i dont think we want that again.

Changing azones or player behaviour are aboth outside the scope of the patch.

It encourages rushing azones for gaming gear, which is exactly against what devs are aiming for

a) Three jobs start with access to the entirity of the station funds and a terminal that allows them to personally steal every single non-cash credit that anyone on the station has, at any time and with no retribution. They also start with guns and access to better things than any of the merchants sell. If someone wants to rush anything for gaming gear, they're rushing captain to the favourite job spot in the occupation menu. They're not doing it in game.

b) Even if that were to decome the de facto way to farm huge amounts of cash (it isn't and can't be but let's pretend it can compete with syriline plants, for example) and it was commonly used, I don't see the problem.

c) I'd rather you got said dev to say this than interpret what their goals are.

[Cal]

They're not doing it in game.

Yeah they are.

[Zonespace]

We’ve already seen what has happened when it becomes meta for jobs to rush azones (ie post hellburn changes engineers) and its not grand, i dont think we want that again.

Changing azones or player behaviour are aboth outside the scope of the patch.
-- Well, you should be balancing around current player behavior, not whatever form of "balance" you're striving for here

It encourages rushing azones for gaming gear, which is exactly against what devs are aiming for

a) Three jobs start with access to the entirity of the station funds and a terminal that allows them to personally steal every single non-cash credit that anyone on the station has, at any time and with no retribution. They also start with guns and access to better things than any of the merchants sell.
-- The shit you're selling (stims, OHR) are vastly, vastly better than an e-gun
They're not doing it in game.
-- Yes they are, have you seen how often the AK and robusstec were rushed?
b) Even if that were to decome the de facto way to farm huge amounts of cash
-- "10,000,000 - Forged Katana", you know this is quite literally 33 starstones of cash on average, right?
(it isn't and can't be but let's pretend it can compete with syriline plants, for example) and it was commonly used, I don't see the problem.
-- The problem is that you're devaluing the credit to literally every other merchant available, and allowing people to buy batshit good gear
c) I'd rather you got said dev to say this than interpret what their goals are.
-- Sure!
https://imgur.com/a/SIaEWxa
https://imgur.com/a/VXZl9gu

[According_tome]

It's a good idea and can add flavor however weapons are a bit unbalanced. Weapons will actually serve to the people with bridge access (because of banking computer) and this can cause more griefing and murder of command personnel also I'm pretty sure QM won't be happy when his entire budget is gone for some random guy's energy gun. To prevent that you can remove those, make prices cheaper to prevent the need of steal. Also regular pipebomb is way cheaper to make than 10k credits so nobody would bother to buy it. If prices are too high people will drain cargo's budget. With a balance this stuff can be great.

[Ikea]

We’ve already seen what has happened when it becomes meta for jobs to rush azones (ie post hellburn changes engineers) and its not grand, i dont think we want that again.

Changing azones or player behaviour are aboth outside the scope of the patch.

Any mechanical change has player behavior inherently inside of its scope because players are the one who will be the ones using and affected by game mechanics. Not to mention mechanical differences heavily influence how players behave.

[Deadvickyart]

It's a good idea and can add flavor however weapons are a bit unbalanced. Weapons will actually serve to the people with bridge access (because of banking computer) and this can cause more griefing and murder of command personnel also I'm pretty sure QM won't be happy when his entire budget is gone for some random guy's energy gun. To prevent that you can remove those, make prices cheaper to prevent the need of steal. Also regular pipebomb is way cheaper to make than 10k credits so nobody would bother to buy it. If prices are too high people will drain cargo's budget. With a balance this stuff can be great.

I'm not 100% on having this be in cargo in the first place, that was someone else's suggestion. I primarily want this focused on cash and personal accounts than the station budget. The banking computer... is its own bigger problem and I don't want to roll it into the black market merchant expansion. Want to keep the patch focused on adding content rather than changing anything.

Numbers are going to be the last thing I get round to finalise, pipe bombs have already been adjusted in my code draft to take into account their material and time requirement. I agree with you that this stuff has to be attractive to players otherwise why bother adding anything, but a lot of people in the thread has been wanting more and more conservative pricing with higher costs for anything that can be weaponised. I've been altering the prices based on feedback in the thread but it's been causing more problems than it's solving and I'm getting massively conflicting advice on whether or not this stuff is too readily avaliable or too expensive, so I'm just going to use the other merchants already in the code as a guideline.

https://imgur.com/a/SIaEWxa
https://imgur.com/a/VXZl9gu

I'm not going to be making fundamental changes based on allegedly hard rules partly formulated in future screenshotted sentences between two people I don't know in a discord channel I've never seen. Hope you feel that's reasonable. Adventure zoners turning their loot into cash is an important gameplay loop and a key feature, I need more pushback than that before I cut it entirely.

Any mechanical change has player behavior inherently inside of its scope because players are the one who will be the ones using and affected by game mechanics. Not to mention mechanical differences heavily influence how players behave.

The player behaviour issues are theoretical. No one has used or abused these mechanics because they're not even fully written yet. The arguments about balance and player behaviour issues in this thread are not based in reality, and I mean that in the most literal sense. These are imagined problems and they are not helpful.

[mralexs]

https://imgur.com/a/SIaEWxa
https://imgur.com/a/VXZl9gu

I'm not going to be making fundamental changes based on allegedly hard rules partly formulated in future screenshotted sentences between two people I don't know in a discord channel I've never seen. Hope you feel that's reasonable. Adventure zoners turning their loot into cash is an important gameplay loop and a key feature, I need more pushback than that before I cut it entirely.

Aloe is an admin/dev and is quite active in the server discord

[Zonespace]

https://imgur.com/a/SIaEWxa
https://imgur.com/a/VXZl9gu

I'm not going to be making fundamental changes based on allegedly hard rules partly formulated in future screenshotted sentences between two people I don't know in a discord channel I've never seen. Hope you feel that's reasonable. Adventure zoners turning their loot into cash is an important gameplay loop and a key feature, I need more pushback than that before I cut it entirely.

Aloe is a dev (amouranth name), and that screenshot was taken in #imcoder, if you've never seen that channel before, nobody to blame but yourself, here's the message link: https://discord.com/channels/18224996089...5676076064

Any mechanical change has player behavior inherently inside of its scope because players are the one who will be the ones using and affected by game mechanics. Not to mention mechanical differences heavily influence how players behave.

The player behaviour issues are theoretical. No one has used or abused these mechanics because they're not even fully written yet. The arguments about balance and player behaviour issues in this thread are not based in reality, and I mean that in the most literal sense. These are imagined problems and they are not helpful.

The player issues are theoretical, yes, but when many, many people who've been playing here upwards of a year are saying "players will do X because Y", it's time to start considering it.

[Deadvickyart]

The player issues are theoretical, yes, but when many, many people who've been playing here upwards of a year are saying "players will do X because Y", it's time to start considering it.

I've been playing since cog 1 was made. I just don't use discord.

[DioChasek]

My final thoughts on this as nothing but a lowly player. Your prices on selling and buying both need another pass. Just off a single bag of chicken nuggets I can net 750000 credits which is enough for 8 bottles of syndicate poison, buy syndicate command armor and helmet and whatever else Carl is selling. And that is without being an actual traitor.
Time invested doing so would likely be in the twenty minutes or less range depending if the cooking structure was in the space diner zone and how many nuggets spawn in each of the 6 fridges there but let’s assume around 4 a piece. That’s half your satchel in less than 2 minutes add in the diner having around 4 more that’s 28 before you even have to butcher a chicken which if you are the rancher you will have set your two beginning eggs in the incubator and will likely have two adult chickens by the time you return to station. This is just one example off the top of my head.
Yes there are multiple rng factors in that scenario (blob trader being post 15 minute mark, and structure spawn) but it isn’t an extreme scenario at all. It’s also a tip of the iceberg as others have pointed out multiple other issues.
I like the intent behind what you are trying to accomplish, any reason to get out and explore the game is great in my opinion I just think overall it needs more fine tuning.

[Zonespace]

The player issues are theoretical, yes, but when many, many people who've been playing here upwards of a year are saying "players will do X because Y", it's time to start considering it.

I've been playing since cog 1 was made.

Being a long time player doesn't make you or your work immune to criticism.

[Deadvickyart]

Being a long time player doesn't make you or your work immune to criticism.

You're demanding massive changes to code I'm already writing, and when I say no you start attempting to pull rank based on your discord pals and whopping 1 year of experience. This isn't criticism, it's hazing. I do not care about what friends you have in high places. You are not important and your opinion is ultimately meaningless. You are not Moses descending with God's will engraved on stone tablets, you are an interpreter of internet fights I do not know or care about. Please stop trying to pick yet more internet fights with me, it's pathetic.

[Cal]

Okay so I've been watching this thread for a good while.

I think you are getting overly defensive of exactly how you want to do this. You have screenshot proof of a developer for Goon saying "Yeah, rushing azones for gear isn't the best thing" and getting furious at it. The idea needs work from the ground-up and the amount of proposed credits being given for items is frankly ridiculous.

Zonespace is a coder with a LOT of experience and merged PRs to not only goon but other codebases, their criticism is quite valid, and they're not picking fights with you. Moreso saving you from having to rewrite everything from the ground up - You did post this in the ideas section of the forums after all.


If you want a long time player's opinion, since you seem to care about that - I've been playing since 2012. The prices are frankly, ridiculous.


There are some great ideas here - I am still a big fan of taking certain people's organs so antagonists can make a bit of cash on the side.