Chemistry nerfs

[Frank_Stein]

If it were up to me, "chem groups" would instead be data diskettes that spacemans cram into chem dispensers.
maybe like 3 disk slots or so, and medbay would start with diskettes for various medical chems.

edit the diskette at your computer or something.
find weird diskettes floating in space full of illegal mixes. whatever.

anything to make it more interesting than ok google goonstation nerd mix haha

That ain't bad

I'm no chemist, so take this opinion with a grain of salt, but I think making chems more interesting to mix would be fun. Doing stuff like having to add no more than a droppers worth at a time to avoid a bad reaction, boiling chems to distill elements out of them, Pouring acids on ores to dissolve them, etc

[aft2001]

Honestly, I kinda like the idea of having chemgroups be a data disk thing. I am similarly not a chemist, only having occasionally played with the system and cracking a handful of secret chems/making some medicine groups. But, here's what I propose based on my knowledge of the in-game computer systems, fleshing out warcrimes' idea out a bit more:

Chem groups are stored on data disks as 16 unit size files, meaning you can have up to 2 per disk (as each disk is 32 units). They can be created and edited via a special program available on ThinkDOS terminals specifically, as TermOS/DWAINE isn't great for intuitively downloading files to a data disk - relatedly, all ThinkDOS terminals in Research should come with this program, as should all med records consoles. A Chem Dispenser can only have 1 disk in at a time, meaning you can only have 2 groups accessible at a time.

The program's UI should be designed in such a way that would make pasting in complicated groups a little tedious, requiring some actual time to input. You'd enter in the name of each reagent, then the quantity to dispense. Also, tweaking chemgroups such that you can have decimal values (maybe up to the hundredths/0.01?) would be great, since many recipes require a good deal of precision. As an example, you'd punch in "carbon", then "15", then your next reagent, then that reagent's value, and so on. The program would display your group as a series of steps like this or something similar to this:

Code:

TITLE OF YOUR CHEMGROUP
===========================
Step | Reagent      | Quantity |
-------------------------------|
1    | Carbon       |   6.00   |
-------------------------------|
2    | Aluminium    |   9.20   |
-------------------------------|
3    | Potassium    |  16.00   |

This could probably very easily work similar to WizWrite, wherein you have some commands to save, load, select a line, delete a line, etc.

As another possible tweak, allow the defining of the same reagent multiple times to be able to add, say, 3 units of carbon, then 3 units of hydrogen, then 6 units of carbon, as opposed to this instruction being interpreted as adding 9 units of carbon and then 3 units of hydrogen. This is a more technical change and isn't as important, but it would allow a greater degree of flexibility for chem groups.

Perhaps also give the option to 'encrypt' a group, making it not display its contents and unable to be opened in an editor? Particularly handy for secret chems or for mixes you'd like to keep to yourself.

A final change would be giving chemistry borgs a built-in data disk so that they can use groups as well.

---

The overall goal of using data disks for chemgroups looks like a potentially good step in the right direction to counteract the issue of copy/pasting in things with minimal effort. Much like MechComp, a similarly powerful game mechanic, Chemistry should require significant in-game time investment, even if you know exactly what you want to do. I quite like this concept and am hoping my fleshing-out of it has done it justice, but it can absolutely go in directions other than what I've described here, such as hosting the groups on the mainframe and having to log in from a Chem Dispenser to use them, or to only be able to find existing groups instead of being able to make your own.

[Froggit_Dogget]

Im a chemnerd.. I have 0 chemgroups. Memorizing the recipes is most of the fun! Copying in pasting isnt very fun. You can make most chemicals faster then you can copy and paste a chemgroup with a welder and memorization. I support nerfing chemgroups.

[Boxta]

Honestly, I kinda like the idea of having chemgroups be a data disk thing. I am similarly not a chemist, only having occasionally played with the system and cracking a handful of secret chems/making some medicine groups. But, here's what I propose based on my knowledge of the in-game computer systems, fleshing out warcrimes' idea out a bit more:

Chem groups are stored on data disks as 16 unit size files, meaning you can have up to 2 per disk (as each disk is 32 units). They can be created and edited via a special program available on ThinkDOS terminals specifically, as TermOS/DWAINE isn't great for intuitively downloading files to a data disk - relatedly, all ThinkDOS terminals in Research should come with this program, as should all med records consoles. A Chem Dispenser can only have 1 disk in at a time, meaning you can only have 2 groups accessible at a time.

The program's UI should be designed in such a way that would make pasting in complicated groups a little tedious, requiring some actual time to input. You'd enter in the name of each reagent, then the quantity to dispense. Also, tweaking chemgroups such that you can have decimal values (maybe up to the hundredths/0.01?) would be great, since many recipes require a good deal of precision. As an example, you'd punch in "carbon", then "15", then your next reagent, then that reagent's value, and so on. The program would display your group as a series of steps like this or something similar to this:

Code:

TITLE OF YOUR CHEMGROUP
===========================
Step | Reagent      | Quantity |
-------------------------------|
1    | Carbon       |   6.00   |
-------------------------------|
2    | Aluminium    |   9.20   |
-------------------------------|
3    | Potassium    |  16.00   |

This could probably very easily work similar to WizWrite, wherein you have some commands to save, load, select a line, delete a line, etc.

As another possible tweak, allow the defining of the same reagent multiple times to be able to add, say, 3 units of carbon, then 3 units of hydrogen, then 6 units of carbon, as opposed to this instruction being interpreted as adding 9 units of carbon and then 3 units of hydrogen. This is a more technical change and isn't as important, but it would allow a greater degree of flexibility for chem groups.

Perhaps also give the option to 'encrypt' a group, making it not display its contents and unable to be opened in an editor? Particularly handy for secret chems or for mixes you'd like to keep to yourself.

A final change would be giving chemistry borgs a built-in data disk so that they can use groups as well.

---

The overall goal of using data disks for chemgroups looks like a potentially good step in the right direction to counteract the issue of copy/pasting in things with minimal effort. Much like MechComp, a similarly powerful game mechanic, Chemistry should require significant in-game time investment, even if you know exactly what you want to do. I quite like this concept and am hoping my fleshing-out of it has done it justice, but it can absolutely go in directions other than what I've described here, such as hosting the groups on the mainframe and having to log in from a Chem Dispenser to use them, or to only be able to find existing groups instead of being able to make your own.

more computerized stuff is good, 1+ to this

[nefarious6th]

---

The overall goal of using data disks for chemgroups looks like a potentially good step in the right direction to counteract the issue of copy/pasting in things with minimal effort. Much like MechComp, a similarly powerful game mechanic, Chemistry should require significant in-game time investment, even if you know exactly what you want to do. I quite like this concept and am hoping my fleshing-out of it has done it justice, but it can absolutely go in directions other than what I've described here, such as hosting the groups on the mainframe and having to log in from a Chem Dispenser to use them, or to only be able to find existing groups instead of being able to make your own.

Aft and warc, this is a really brilliant suggestion. I am a Medicore Chem Nerd and this actually seems like it'd be tons of fun, for me at the very least. Balances a powerful tool and adds a sufficient amount of depth to the ~process~ of chemistry. Mirrors the analytical precision of IRL chemistry in a way that makes sense for a space-toot video game mechanic without having to add like.............titration stand mechanics and sit-and-extract-this-pepper-for-4-hours mechanics and fume hood mechanics (a hole in the floor CAN be a fume hood if I want!) and whatever else.

Vague-ish-ly related but I'd also be totally down if this is a sort of rework that happens for some more goal-oriented chemistry things that tie back into it. Zjd's artifact analysis stuff has me thinking up all sorts of other odds and ends. Running analysis of environmental chems from different azones or biomes or whatever, maybe trying to have reactions occur to create in situ chem products in samples; dissolving ore in acid to extract Useful Minerals was a cool idea too; shipping disks with the resulting groups out or taking them back to Central or something, maybe like a loose bounty system to reward creation and shipping of certain high-demand groups. That'd be fun...For me >:^)

[aft2001]

I should also note that data disks are a surprisingly rare commodity, with the few blank ones being available solely in a single box in technical storage and maybe a couple other places. You CAN wipe existing disks that have stuff on them though. Mechanics can print more though, so you'd wanna bug them for blueprints for Research's fabricator. L
As another note, the quantity of groups that can be hosted on a single disk can be easily changed by just changing the file size. Is 2 too much? Just make it bigger than 16 and only 1 can fit. 2 not enough? Make it 10 or smaller and 3 can fit, etc.

Personally I'd be happy to see EITHER DWAINE-hosted chemgroups *or* disk-hosted chemgroups. I can probably brainstorm how a DWAINE system would work later and edit this reply to contain that.

---

Now that I'm back at my computer I can make proper edits, whoo.
So, I've been brainstorming for a little bit and here's a bit of what I've come up with for a DWAINE-based chemgrouping:

The creation of chem groups should be near-identical to the process I described for the disk-based method, wherein you line-by-line punch in what you wanna add. Where the Disk and DWAINE systems differ is how they're loaded into the chem dispenser. For the Disk system, you would simply stuff the disk into a chem dispenser. But for the DWAINE system, you'd need to load the group from the mainframe onto the dispenser, somehow. This means that, unlike a disk-based system, a chem dispenser must be on-station in order to be used. This completely shuts down chem nerds from working at some off-station site they've made, unless they do genuinely super nerdy shit with setting up a wireless connection to the station PNET with MechComp somehow (in which case yeah that's fine, they've earned it).

Relatedly, I think the Mainframe should be less vital and more so a luxury. That is, it going down should not devastate the station, but rather just disable/remove conveniences and luxuries, such as Chem Groups. That and being a way to balance particularly strong game mechanics, such as Telesci, since the mainframe is uh, fragile.


Regarding the more specific/technical side of how such a connection would work, here is one way it could work:
As Chem Dispensers would have to be networked machines for this to work, their Net ID should be visible in their UI (or maybe you have to screwdriver it or something). When you make your Chem Group file, you will be prompted to add a Chem Dispenser ID to it, OR link it to your ID (since you can use your ID in Chem Dispensers already). When you go to use the Chem Dispenser you have linked it to, or log into a Chem Dispenser with your ID card, and click a new button which would refresh the available Chem Groups, a list of all groups for that Dispenser/ID will be made visible.

This 'refresh' button would send a packet to the Mainframe, which would include the name of any ID inserted, asking it to list what groups are available. The mainframe then checks to see what Groups stored on the mainframe are listed for that Dispenser's Net ID/ID card name, and will then send a reply packet with a list of the names of all groups the dispenser is allowed to use. These are then loaded into the UI and made visible, save for the actual contents of the group.

When a user clicks the Group, the Dispenser will send a packet similar to the 'refresh button' packet described in the last paragraph, but instead asking for the actual reagents in the group. The mainframe then does a check to see if the dispenser is authorized to use said group, and if so it will reply with the list of reagents and their quantities (likely in a file which can't be read). The dispenser will, upon receiving this packet, dispense the reagents as normal.


Notably this is absolutely not the only way a mainframe-based chem group can be done. For example, it could be worked such that you could directly load the group into a dispenser from the mainframe, rather than having to ask the mainframe every time the dispenser wants to use a group.

[Azrun]

After some discussion about Chem groups recently I sat down and tried something a little different a while ago.  Instead of entering a lit of chems for the machine to output, instead your hit the record button.  It will then keep track of all the reagents and amounts that are dispensed, which can then be saved as a chem group.  This removes the copy/paste aspect while allowing more flexibility with the order of reagents being added as this could allow for duplicates.  This mostly removes the copy/pasta aspect as you must manually enter it at least once before saving it.

Following Cal's suggestion a number of Chem Groups could come loaded on the dispenser at round start.

Demo:
https://streamable.com/t3dwf2

[Froggit_Dogget]

i like this

[stagda]

Personally I don't really see the need to change things with chem groups but I think Azrun's solution is well thought out and strikes a good balance between what currently is the case and some of the more restrictive ideas proposed

[McDougie]

I am a chem nerd who uses groups for just about anything over 3 chemicals, Id have to check wiki or my groups to make even phlog by hand. Removing them entirely or replacing them with a load of manual clicking would make me sad. I've already got pages of stupidly large groups that can no longer be used due to various changes but I cant bring myself to delete them.

Have we considered looking at the interactions between different chems and also temperature stability? Realistically if you mixed CF3 with FOOF even at very low temperatures people would know for a good mile or two around.

These sorts of chemicals are just not stable enough to carry around in a beaker at all. Giving all pyrotechnique chems especially a very high stability cost - if you stick phlog and cf3 together in the same beaker at anything above something like 100K bad things happen. Other interactions like FS acid ruining poisons over time could be added.

The idea being that instead of hellmixes being a case of just chucking all the death chems in, its more of a nuanced and skillful endeavour requiring planning and careful execution - similar to how in genetics you cant just give yourself empowered everything without it going wrong.

This combined with making beaker chems return to ambient temperature over time would give hellmixes a short fuse or you keep having to dump cryo/oxy into it. You probably wouldn't get from chemistry to security before it went off in your pocket.

I think chemicals shouldn't be so portable - carrying around a full beaker of FS acid in your pocket in real life would be fatal. Beakers maybe should splash some contents over you and the floor if you slip or sprint? Even if in your bag/pocket. I'd suggest all acids should slowly corrode the beaker (not as flavour text but if you make FS/HCL acid then you have maybe 2-3 mins before the beaker is gone and the entire contents is dumped over you applying touch).

This could lead to a pretty cool traitor chemist beaker where its got an inbuilt cooling mechanism so you can keep a mix at artic temperatures until required (or artbeakers that do something similar). Would also stop nerds like me spending 20-30 minutes filling up a 20k water tank that just deletes medbay.

Just some ideas that would probably be fiddly to implement and probably closer to a complete overhaul of chemistry. Its always been a constant source of balance issues so that might be the best option compared to constantly removing functionality.

[Mouse]

On the "chemistry should be more dangerous to the chemist" note, I firmly believe that labcoats shouldn't offer any protection whatsoever against sarin.  That change was bad and not needed.

[Rmeaper]

On the "chemistry should be more dangerous to the chemist" note, I firmly believe that labcoats shouldn't offer any protection whatsoever against sarin.  That change was bad and not needed.

I think that's more for the benefit of the other scientists in the room when someone mixes 500 units of sarin without saying a word.

[MetricDuck]

I don't like the pre-loaded medical chems - learning how to make those groups (recs?) is a good activity for new chemists to learn the dispenser & feel useful loading them in, and experienced players probably know them or know how to look them up

if you go down the floppy disk route having a disk with those on already in ie: MDs locker would be fine tho i guess

edit: to be clear not trying to gatekeep anything here, I just think that learning the medchem recs(?) is a good go-to early gameplay loop for chemists and having them pre-loaded (even if it's only on mapstart or even mapstart pharmacy) undermines that by removing the immediate practical need for that activity on the station

[MetricDuck]

[Cal]

The average, very very new player has no goddamn idea how to make styptic and even less idea how to make a chemgroup. Pre loaded chemicals are fine.