(This idea is more or less stolen from Frank_Stein in the headlocking thread but I thought it was a nice idea.)
Basically, what if you could swipe a medical director level ID across a hypo and it expands the whitelist somewhat? I'm thinking mostly of expanding the whitelist to medical chems that have considerable side effects and maybe some drugs, so it's about giving MDs and experienced doctors some room for less-than-safe mixes or niche purpose hypos while keeping the horrible poisons out. It's not meant to give MD traitors free near-EMAG hypos by default.
I've had a quick look at the medical chem section for what isn't on the whitelist, and here's some niche chems that I figure could fit for this:
Stimulants - I'd also suggest moving stimulants from the default to the expanded whitelist if this idea is received well - the wear-off effects are rather bad.
I mentioned drugs earlier but I'm not sure to what extent any of them are suitable (maybe aranesp? Or something that's practically harmless like LSD or space drugs?).
Some foods even??? (espresso, milk)
I think in reality only atropine would really matter to most doctors but then I wouldn't want to encourage every doctor asking the MD to unlock their hypos every round either.
So I guess give a yes/no and maybe suggestions for chems. :P
This is quite a neat idea; honestly, it always upset me that I could have my synaptizine/atropine mix in one hypospray to save someone from deepcrit. However, I think there should be a caveat:
If an expanded whitelist chem is in the hypospray, then the maximum amount that can be injected at any time is capped at a low amount, maybe 5 or 10. If I'm not mistaken, there's already a short cooldown between when you can inject people. This is to better ensure that this won't be used to instantly fill people with morphine and absolutely destroy them.
Maybe have a pinpointer that can locate any unlocked hypospray, too?
As for the idea itself, I'd this this would be very neat for a QM purchasable item rather than being a standalone function for swiping any and all hyposprays as a medical director.
There is inherent balance issues as Aft has pointed out with inject amount and this would not be limited to the MD but anyone with MD access. 30u of Halo/Morphine all at once is uhhh.. not desirable. There isn't really a short cooldown btw and if there is, it's fairly negligible. The MD should absolutely spawn with an advanced hypospray, that would be A-OK. Think the Advanced Hypospray being for "Advanced" medicine, rather than a straight upgrade from the hypospray.
On your other point, I also don't think the stimulant (i.e: Meth) in a hypospray is that big an issue. It's a fun way of injecting yourself and it has genuine combat uses. On the contrary, I think it'd be fun to include weird stims into the standard hypospray, like aranesp.
So to recap:
1. Advanced Hyposprays, 3x pack. Purchasable at QM. 2500-3000 credits. Med Dir locked.
2. Advanced Hypospray has a max injection of 5u, but has a longer (3-4 sec) cooldown than the standard hypospray.
3. Med Dir spawns with an Advanced Hypospray.
4. Advanced Hypospray has the following list of chems:
All of the medical chems on the wiki (which includes the ones in the OP + stuff like hunchback, triple citrus, Yobihodazine)
Beer (can be cooled and injected at 1u amounts for neat poison cure)
Chocolate (can be heated and injected for neat n cheap cold resistance)
Bilk
Milk
Formaldehyde (for corpses)
Cryostylane
THC (food buff uses, primarily for stoner botanists)
10-27-2020, 03:03 PM (This post was last modified: 10-27-2020, 03:11 PM by BatElite. Edited 1 time in total.
Edit Reason: Forgot to mention a thing
)
Cheers for adding the whitelist. I took out triple citrus from the short list I gave for the same reason, but it would have been a neat addition if it did anything in a hypo. :P
I didn't mean meth, although I'm aware that's in the whitelist (& suggested espresso for similar effect), but stimulants as in what's in traitor stimpacks. Dunno why it's whitelisted in the first place really.
Haloperidol and morphine are good examples of why I asked about chem recommendations. I left out ether for the reason that it'd not have legit use in a hypo, whereas haloperidol has niche uses and morphine might be useful if someone's going to go powergamey on providing surgery. Maybe we should leave halo & morphine off the list too, though I'd prefer to have halo on it personally. Bilk, beer & chocolate are interesting additions too.
Lowering the injection limit is probably a good idea for countering traitor purposes (halo & morphine like you mentioned). I'm not sure if anyone uses more than 10u for legit purposes anyway. I used 15 on an epi + salb mix for a while, but keeping it on 5 and monitoring is easier and involves less wastage. I think in practice the only thing that would make the advanced hypo you suggest not a direct upgrade is the harsher delay between injections. I was hoping to make it a specialist option that's not worth bothering the MD for unless you have a plan.
The reason I wanted to put it behind the MD instead of cargo is because I wanted to try and give the MD more of a reason to not be ignored by medbay. In my experience they don't have much over regular docs except black pants. The gear they have is either overshadowed by what's already in medbay or barely used. (It probably has happened but I've personally never seen the syringe & tranq guns used for their intended purpose if at all.)
Atropine may not be as deadly anymore, but it does still do significant damage, and it's super unfun for the several minutes its in your system. Total movement screw, randomly going unconscious, etc. Instant injection of it via round start Mdir gear doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
(10-28-2020, 08:06 AM)UrsulaMejor Wrote: Atropine may not be as deadly anymore, but it does still do significant damage, and it's super unfun for the several minutes its in your system. Total movement screw, randomly going unconscious, etc. Instant injection of it via round start Mdir gear doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Morphine is similarly unfun to get injected with.
Atropine autoinjectors are available, though not particularly plentiful. They're a great way for an mdoc to defend themselves nonlethally, and would probably be less obnoxious if at least one of the medstaff could inject a bit less than usual.
I think one thing I really wanted to express was the idea that a head unlocking something would be a kind of equivalent to opening the armory, something that is an immediate benefit to a crisis situation for the whole department while being potentially dangerous and loudly announcing it has happened.
10-29-2020, 05:50 AM (This post was last modified: 10-29-2020, 05:52 AM by Mouse. Edited 1 time in total.)
Maybe relate it to the restricted medicine lockers and crates then? While I am of the opinion that the hypospray whitelist needs to be reworked, a lot of the medicines that aren't on it are not on it for extremely good reasons.
Keep in mind that part of the balance of the armory is that the HoS cannot be a traitor, and neither can the majority of people who can put in an authorization to the armory.
10-29-2020, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 10-29-2020, 08:31 AM by vampirate.)
I think this is a great idea. Personally the morphine one would be great for surgery cause not enough docs use morphine before they use it. 10 morphine 10 saline gluc 10 epi would be my go to for presurgery (don't @ me about the epi cause it's there in case surgery goes wrong and I don't need to quickly add it) I WOULD however leave out ether. The difference between morphine putting people to sleep and ether is morphine has a benefit of negating any slow effects from injury whereas ether is just a straight sleep chem. Morphine gives you a solid amount of time to cry out or run away, and while ether gives the same time running becomes more difficult when injured.
(10-29-2020, 05:50 AM)Mouse Wrote: Maybe relate it to the restricted medicine lockers and crates then? While I am of the opinion that the hypospray whitelist needs to be reworked, a lot of the medicines that aren't on it are not on it for extremely good reasons.
Keep in mind that part of the balance of the armory is that the HoS cannot be a traitor, and neither can the majority of people who can put in an authorization to the armory.
Until the hacking of the armory doesn't become so trivial that HoP's do it half the time I don't buy this argument. Armory authorization is the joke where the crew is the punchline. Hell the Captain and HoP can be traitor and they got direct access and I think I am one of the few sec that'll arrest an HoP I find hacking into the armory.
the thing you need to keep in mind with these chems is "How good would this be if someone walked up to me and hit me with 30 units of it with no means for me to react?"
that is the downfall for a lot of them:
30u atropine is 5 minutes of staggering & health degen
30u morphine is a 2+ minute stun
30u calomel is a full minute of being 2 extinguishers from crit with no reasonable means of purging it
30u filgra is a heart explosion
30u heparin melts you
30u haloperidol is 3 minutes of crippling debuffs
(10-29-2020, 05:13 PM)TDHooligan Wrote: the thing you need to keep in mind with these chems is "How good would this be if someone walked up to me and hit me with 30 units of it with no means for me to react?"
that is the downfall for a lot of them:
30u atropine is 5 minutes of staggering & health degen
30u morphine is a 2+ minute stun
30u calomel is a full minute of being 2 extinguishers from crit with no reasonable means of purging it
30u filgra is a heart explosion
30u heparin melts you
30u haloperidol is 3 minutes of crippling debuffs
But that sounds griefy if you're not a traitor.
I've always wondered why the Hypo can do 30u anyway. Does anyone actually turn it up that high?
(10-29-2020, 05:13 PM)TDHooligan Wrote: the thing you need to keep in mind with these chems is "How good would this be if someone walked up to me and hit me with 30 units of it with no means for me to react?"
that is the downfall for a lot of them:
30u atropine is 5 minutes of staggering & health degen
30u morphine is a 2+ minute stun
30u calomel is a full minute of being 2 extinguishers from crit with no reasonable means of purging it
30u filgra is a heart explosion
30u heparin melts you
30u haloperidol is 3 minutes of crippling debuffs
Most of these take a wild amount of time tos et in. Most also have injectors anyway
(10-28-2020, 08:15 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: I think one thing I really wanted to express was the idea that a head unlocking something would be a kind of equivalent to opening the armory, something that is an immediate benefit to a crisis situation for the whole department while being potentially dangerous and loudly announcing it has happened.
I'm curious then what you were thinking of with your idea. Medbay crises tend to be of the explosive nature and there's not much cooperation between doctors. This was also meant to help with that. :P
(10-29-2020, 05:50 AM)Mouse Wrote: Maybe relate it to the restricted medicine lockers and crates then? While I am of the opinion that the hypospray whitelist needs to be reworked, a lot of the medicines that aren't on it are not on it for extremely good reasons.
I'm curious, what do you think should change about the whitelist?
I'd like to note this isn't blanket expanding the whitelist, but something that requires head intervention. Whether it's an ID swipe or a restricted med thing, that wouldn't change much.
(10-29-2020, 05:13 PM)TDHooligan Wrote: the thing you need to keep in mind with these chems is "How good would this be if someone walked up to me and hit me with 30 units of it with no means for me to react?"
--snip--
Lowering the injection limit was more or less the first suggestion made here, along with increasing the time between injections. IDK how to feel about the second one, but it's probably a reasonable thing to include.(From what I've experienced heparin overdose isn't exactly lethal BTW, I'm not sure about filgrastim or proconvertin.)
My concern at this point is also whether people would actually weaponise this stuff. I suspect that a bunch of traitors either don't know chem stuff well enough to capitalise on this, or they already know much more lethal shit that they prefer. It's also worthy to note that the MD already starts with a gun that shoots haloperidol, and that didn't get used for bad stuff much last I played.
10-30-2020, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 10-30-2020, 10:10 AM by vampirate. Edited 1 time in total.)
I feel like even if medbay does use some of the stuff offensively... so? We already do the injectors. Would it be so bad for a medic to be able to morphine the clown that keeps space lubing medbay? Or to have a close range deterrent that makes people have to bail? Like this seems like a positive for being able to do more but if it has offensive advantages, so be it. The armory exists, that genie is out of the bottle. Might as well diversify if it improves QoL for others as well. Give medbay some cool toys to up their game, offensive capabilities are a secondary concern, especially when injectors already exist.
Like let's look at this...
Security has the armory.
Botany can grow flaming explosive tomaotes.
The barman can whip up deadly cocktails in a glass to throw and has a shotgun (the chef also can use these facilities).
Engineers can vent plasma anywhere in the station, sometimes even blue heated.
Research...
QM can order all kinds of awful stuff...
Mining can literally mine tossable explosive stuff.
We really gonna be like "DoN't GiVe mEdBaY bEtTer HyPos tHeY MiGhT pUt PeOpLe tO SlEeP aFtEr ThIrTy SeCoNds"
Half the good shit in the game can be used for bad. I feel the good outweighs the bad, and hell the bad is just more tools to make people have different approaches to their traitoring if they used em.
Goonhub
