Let's talk about The Cool Zone

[popecrunch]

Every time I've seen statements that passed the 'a reasonable person would consider this incitement' test, it's been shit on by regular folks pretty much immediately, and Dealt With by an admin as soon as one saw it. I mean hell, even carbodox's screenshot that he intended to be an example of the system not working, was - actually a screenshot of the system working, because an admin Dealt With It in moments.

As for differing opinions - frankly, it's not our job to make people like you or agree with you. Yes, the cool zone has a 'feel' to it, there are ideas that are accepted and ideas that are not accepted. The same is true of any space where conversation more complicated than small talk is allowed. If you have ideas that the space generally doesn't accept, the simple solution is either to not go into that space, or to keep those ideas to yourself if you do choose to go into that space. I, for one, hate lobster. Hate it. Seafood in general is wasted on me, but lobster specifically I have absolutely no use for. I do, however, love to cook, and hang out in a few spaces where talking about cooking is the stated goal. If I say 'lobster is trash garbage and i hate it' in those spaces, I would probably get Yelled At - not for saying I hate it, but for saying it's trash garbage. Is that unfair? Not in the slightest. It's not *my* space, it's a communal space of which I am simply one member. The unfair thing would be for me to insist that my personal standards are more important than the standards of the space I choose to hang out in.

The same is true here - it's up to each individual person to decide whether or not they want to look at or chat in the cool zone. It is up to each individual person to decide which opinions or ideas they choose to share in the cool zone. If you share an idea in the cool zone that is rejected, even if it is done so impolitely, *it is not our job to make people agree with you*. Just because multiple people are disagreeing with you don't mean you're being dogpiled. Most of the time, it just means you probably should have kept it in your pants.

[shotgunbill]

I think the place contains roughly every type of conversation I don't want to have as part of a community about a spaceman game, but that's okay because I followed the following steps:

1) Mute the channel
2) Carry on with my life

Anyone else is welcome to do the same.

Is it somewhat leftist? I think that's an understatement. Does that matter? Nope. Do I mind if people with right wing/centrist views don't feel welcome in there? Not especially because they're fully able to carry out Steps 1 and 2 above. Do I mind if people who are somewhat apathetic to it all don't feel welcome in there (this includes me) because lack of outrage at certain things is contentious? Nope, because Steps 1 and 2 above.

For some people going through some rough times what with -gestures at the world-, if they find some happiness or a chance to vent in there or whatever, good for them.

I think it'd be neat if people could report people being turds to admins rather than escalating or engaging with said turds, but we get the same joy with people not adminhelping when they should so I don't exactly expect that.

i like mordent's cool and easy guide for dealing with the cool zone

[vampirate]

Hating someone for their professed political beliefs is not the same thing as hating someone because they are gay. I suggest you drop that hand-grenade of a comparison and back away from it before it explodes in your hand.

I don't agree with calls to violence, but I also haven't seen much evidence of such in my brief forays into the channel. In the times I *have* seen it, it's been addressed rather quickly and judiciously by other admins.

I used the gay comparison because I date men, and it's the only one I felt qualified to make. But you're right, it's a poor comparison. I don't have a better one (I wish I did because you are absolutely right), but the point is the handwave of the breaking rules for one location in broad strokes is not a good precedent.

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Every time I've seen statements that passed the 'a reasonable person would consider this incitement' test, it's been shit on by regular folks pretty much immediately, and Dealt With by an admin as soon as one saw it. I mean hell, even carbodox's screenshot that he intended to be an example of the system not working, was - actually a screenshot of the system working, because an admin Dealt With It in moments.

As for differing opinions - frankly, it's not our job to make people like you or agree with you. Yes, the cool zone has a 'feel' to it, there are ideas that are accepted and ideas that are not accepted. The same is true of any space where conversation more complicated than small talk is allowed. If you have ideas that the space generally doesn't accept, the simple solution is either to not go into that space, or to keep those ideas to yourself if you do choose to go into that space. I, for one, hate lobster. Hate it. Seafood in general is wasted on me, but lobster specifically I have absolutely no use for. I do, however, love to cook, and hang out in a few spaces where talking about cooking is the stated goal. If I say 'lobster is trash garbage and i hate it' in those spaces, I would probably get Yelled At - not for saying I hate it, but for saying it's trash garbage. Is that unfair? Not in the slightest. It's not *my* space, it's a communal space of which I am simply one member. The unfair thing would be for me to insist that my personal standards are more important than the standards of the space I choose to hang out in.

The same is true here - it's up to each individual person to decide whether or not they want to look at or chat in the cool zone. It is up to each individual person to decide which opinions or ideas they choose to share in the cool zone. If you share an idea in the cool zone that is rejected, even if it is done so impolitely, *it is not our job to make people agree with you*. Just because multiple people are disagreeing with you don't mean you're being dogpiled. Most of the time, it just means you probably should have kept it in your pants.

It is the way they do it as well as the mass rushing of people. If it's not a place for debate and all that, then getting dogpiled shouldn't be a thing... but setting that aside, the toxic nature of the dogpiling... rather than reasonable disagreeing escalating to personal insults and such is where it gets bad. Lemme call myself out here, I reacted with returned insults myself a couple times. I had to walk back some shit, but... it just seems to be an environment that fosters it. Not always, but enough that it's noticeable. If it's a place to debate? Then yeah I suppose the reasonable expectation is I might get dogpiled, but if it's for catharsis and people just to sad or facebook post... that feels like a place no one should get dogpiled unless their opinion is just hideously egregious like on some neo-nazi shit. That is my opinion

[Adhara In Space]

i just want to point out. you can say "this thing i said was bad and i apologise" without falling back on "no its ok that i said that bc im actually a bernie bro" or "its ok that i said that because i date men". admit you made a mistake without trying to excuse it.

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also if u find sonething bad in cool channel, please pm me and ill try to take a look at it. think in discord admin help

[vampirate]

i just want to point out. you can say "this thing i said was bad and i apologise" without falling back on "no its ok that i said that bc im actually a bernie bro" or "its ok that i said that because i date men". admit you made a mistake without trying to excuse it.

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also if u find sonething bad in cool channel, please pm me and ill try to take a look at it. think in discord admin help

yeah it was a poor choice for comparison. I don't have a good comparison I feel qualified to make. I'm bad at expressing myself at times and I apologize. Making apt social comparisons and hell just expressing my thoughts in a good way that doesn't offend anyone (who are right to be offended when I fuck up) is a part of me I am working on and I actively am trying to get better at it. I meant no offense. Sorry.

[warcrimes]

You keep saying "they" and "dogpiling" as though there's a remedy to this.
the "they" in question seems to just be the plurality of players who frequent the channel, and the dogpiling is just an artifact of managing to piss off a large enough number of people with one statement. A talent.

There is no rule or structure in all of space and time that is going to let us, the admins, protect individuals from pissing off as many people as they can, and having those people react somewhat simultaneously to the piss-off. There's not going to be a queue and a microphone to pass around to debate you.

You're taking issue with the format that Discord itself provides but blaming it on us for allowing it to exist in one place instead of everywhere.
Just like it's your choice if you want to make comments on youtube or facebook or twitter, it's your choice to make comments in the cool zone and it's entirely on you whether you've said something that's gonna make people like you, or make people mad at you.

And no, there is not a magical line where an offensive statement is always better than a personal insult in response. There's no such standard anywhere. If you say shit that angers enough people that you can reasonably call those people a dogpile, it stands to reason that you're being out-voted in the free marketplace of ideas and should probably stop before you go bankrupt.

[vampirate]

My issue is it's a plurality of players that manage to bully others out of those spaces, thus reinforcing their plurality.   It forces any person not of a type of mindset, a very specific flavor of American left as it was put, to remain siilent or leave.    Is the position really that "it's cool for all players of a specific flavor of beliefs to straight bully players out of this space.  it's theirs now"?    Do a majority of players support the space as it is now, or discord users?   I don't think so.    

I DO think the space is worth saying.  I DO think its mission statement is a good on and like... in general I support safe spaces for people to speak out.  My personal feelings aside the purpose of the thread was to give more than me a voice in that, cause I'm just one jerk who rightfully gets scorned for his poor communication skills at times.    As it stands now in the poll... so far people seem to agree, though I encourage other people to vote there if they like the space as is.

I'm just one jerk, and I should shut up after this cause the conversation here shouldn't be about my personal feelings.

This is where things are just under 24 hours of the poll being up.


For the record I voted the second.  I think it's a conceptually good place, it just gets a bit toxic. You've got other trusted players here telling ya'll their experience of the place. The point of this thread (and why I wanted someone else to post it initially) was to show that. Like, this isn't me shitting on cool zone, this isn't my thread. This is a plurality of players telling you things there aren't ok.

[warcrimes]

could you actually load the poll options any harder ?

[UrsulaMejor]

where's the "I don't care" option on that poll?

Why is the most negative option presented in a "reasonable" voice, while the most positive option is presented in an unrealistic pollyanna sugar voice?

3 of the four options support your position and the one that doesn't is written in such a way as to feel unreasonable to select.

How do you plan on counteracting selection bias (people are more likely to respond to things they care about, things are more likely to care about things they perceive as problems)?

this poll was posted on the forums; the players who hang on the forums regularly are a very small and distinct set of people compared to the people who hang out on the discord.

there's also a difference between not liking a space and believing that that space needs to change. I don't like cool zone, but I also don't feel like it's a problem that requires addressing. I'm open to changing my mind about that, but so far the things brought to bear in this thread haven't been compelling

that poll has significant problems with its timing, placement, and construction. it's basically useless.

[Flourish]

also if u find sonething bad in cool channel, please pm me and ill try to take a look at it. think in discord admin help

Yeah what Adhara said. Please DM an admin if you feel like someone's making calls to violence or being egregiously offensive. Otherwise, just read the room and let #cool-zone be.

A bunch of stuff.

From my understanding, a lot of what you're saying can just be summed up to "the channel leans left and I can't express my moderate or right opinions without being told that I'm wrong". Is that correct?

Also that poll isn't very good; both your sample population and the options are biased.

[vampirate]

where's the "I don't care" option on that poll?

Why is the most negative option presented in a "reasonable" voice, while the most positive option is presented in an unrealistic pollyanna sugar voice?

3 of the four options support your position and the one that doesn't is written in such a way as to feel unreasonable to select.

How do you plan on counteracting selection bias (people are more likely to respond to things they care about, things are more likely to care about things they perceive as problems)?

this poll was posted on the forums; the players who hang on the forums regularly are a very small and distinct set of people compared to the people who hang out on the discord.

that poll has significant problems with its timing, placement, and construction. it's basically useless.

I consulted someone who feels positively about the cool zone for the wording of that other one... didn't word it myself :-/

"Good but it has some problems" isn't something I'd support. I even put the good option first in the list to make sure I wasn't leading people. I tried to be as fair in it as possible. The "I don't care" option, is that a thing that should be in? I can add it.

But if you want, you can go solely by the comments of the players in the thread. I don't find it useless. Perhaps I should have included a "vile den of scum and villainy" option as a counterpoint to perfect, but like... I tried to use positive wording even in the negative option. The idea was to keep the wording constructive.

[warcrimes]

Yes we could sample only the people who have taken the time out of their day to bring up mis-remembered bad experiences and poor examples of why they hate the channel, or we could also sample the people *in* the channel.

In the last three hours alone there have been no less than 15 unique users of the channel all having a very good time.
That's more than your entire sample size, and I'll put them in the "this is okay" camp.

[vampirate]

also if u find sonething bad in cool channel, please pm me and ill try to take a look at it. think in discord admin help

Yeah what Adhara said. Please DM an admin if you feel like someone's making calls to violence or being egregiously offensive. Otherwise, just read the room and let #cool-zone be.

A bunch of stuff.

From my understanding, a lot of what you're saying can just be summed up to "the channel leans left and I can't express my moderate or right opinions without being told that I'm wrong". Is that correct?

Also that poll isn't very good; both your sample population and the options are biased.

It's less that and more that even the idea that perhaps Trumpers and Cops aren't all monsters might get shouted down. Again, I am what Americans would consider far left. For context I would be just left of Bernie Sanders. People have been shouted down for expressing any positive notion for cops, rules of law, and whatnot. Anything outside the overriding opinion there can get some nasty comments.

I personally try to see the good in everyone and everything.... though I find it impossible to see any good in Donald Trump. I'm willing to give almost anyone (not you Trump) the benefit of the doubt, and yeah I am guilty of throwing pearls before swine. I guess the nature of the net is towards extremity though. I am not complaining about anything that also doesn't happen on social media, but I dunno... shouldn't a moderated discord be a bit better than political twitter in its interactions?

[UrsulaMejor]

you might not support "it's good but it has some problems", but it does support your position of there being problems that need to be addressed. in other words, it is easily twisted to be used as "look, 11 people of 12 agree with me that there are problems!"

your poll also conflates/combines the idea of liking a thing or disliking a thing with perceiving some degree of "problem". as I said in my edit, and as pope alluded to with his lobster analogy, the fact that I do not like cool zone and do not personally think it is "good" does not mean it is a problem that requires my attention.

Like, there's been a lot of what ifs and hypothesizing in this thread, but there's been next to no specific incidents that can be pointed to, and the ones that HAVE been pointed to were addressed by admins at the time. I'm not even sure what is being asked to be done here, or what specifically is the supposed problem.

Like, can I get a specific list (it does not need to be complete) of perceived problems that are (1) demonstrable and (2) actionable?

what do you want us to do, and about what? I'm not even sure I understand even that much.

[vampirate]

Yes we could sample only the people who have taken the time out of their day to bring up mis-remembered bad experiences and poor examples of why they hate the channel, or we could also sample the people *in* the channel.

In the last three hours alone there have been no less than 15 unique users of the channel all having a very good time.
That's more than your entire sample size, and I'll put them in the "this is okay" camp.

But the whole point of the thread was anyone could reply, like... even them...