Remove genetic things from lings entirely.

[Frank_Stein]

I don't think we should ever place a limit on antags that we wouldn't place on an average player.

Antags are dangerous because they have additional ways to kill you on top of the usual ones.

If a particular combination is powerful, then we should have counters (Mutadone) or we should look into tweaking the mechanics to make them less exploitable.

[Wisecrack34]

With Lockers being fixed would that still be an issue now? If so you could say "Wizards are too advanced to understand this ancient technology on the fly", if not then the concept of 'Gun Wizards" pleases me greatly and that will be the last of "Gun Wizard" discussion as Frank, to be frank, is correct.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

I don't think we should ever place a limit on antags that we wouldn't place on an average player.

Antags are dangerous because they have additional ways to kill you on top of the usual ones.

Except blobs, flock, gunbots, subverted borgs, werewolfs and wraiths which all have lowered access to things compared to non-antags which creates more interesting, diverse gameplay.

[GORE]

To my understanding, the biggest problem with gun wizards is/was the ease with which they could fill up on 6 tasers and go around being overpowered on top of overpowered. Getting really dope genetics stuff isn't exactly hard, but it isn't nearly as easy as Wizard popping into the Sec lockers. This is very kneejerk, to me.

Well - we got sec-tokens now. Kinda slows down such a problem a bit.

Though there is still stuff in the armory but that is not hard to get for anyone really.

[Technature]

So we should make lings not be able to get genes because...things that AREN'T the ling or evenly remotely human can't get genes either?

I wasn't on board in the first place and you're somehow still losing me.

Also, I have no idea why werewolves are part of that list as they can hide themselves just as effectively as a ling.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

So we should make lings not be able to get genes because...things that AREN'T the ling or evenly remotely human can't get genes either?

...Yes? I don't see the problem here. Things that aren't remotely human can't get gene fuckery. Lings wouldn't be any different.

[GORE]

Well the reason for mice not being able to receive genes is because they are a different type of creature. A critter.

There are performance reasons and strange code reasons for why mice or space-wasps cannot receive gene modifications.
As far as I am aware that current state of mice being unable to receive gene-treatment is a development cycle that has started ages ago...I sincerely doubt that the reason was balance.

If anything Changelings fit the thematic of gene modifications out of all antags the best. Arguing to remove the capability of them receiving bad and good genes alike seems unjustified.
I had occasions when I was a Changeling; ate somebody and was able to receive SMES by transforming into the body of the person I ate...but I was also blind,...
There are trade-offs.

There are also ways to remove genetic modifications from individuals so...I really see NO reason to see a change in how things are regarding that system.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

If anything Changelings fit the thematic of gene modifications out of all antags the best.

Yeah so why are they using the station's genetic shit instead of their own?

[GORE]

---
To highlight my confusion about the reasoning behind,...
@DJ-Fireball_did_this

Things not remotely human cannot receive genes so Changelings should neither.

Sounds vaguely similar to the following,...

Space-Wasps cannot wear hats so monkeys and humans should neither.

---
These things are very different. Just because one type of creature cannot do something does not mean another shouldn't be able to do that as well.
Stuff like this should not be generalized but talked about on a case by case basis.

But your main argument seems to be,...
Changelings are not human so genes seem unfitting?

That does not convince me mate.
---
If however we could identify a Changeling by putting it into a gene machine and scanning it's body or noticing a strange unchangeable genetic mutation........making it obvious that the person inside is a Changeling,...
I mean that could be fun or fitting or whatever,...

---

If anything Changelings fit the thematic of gene modifications out of all antags the best.

Yeah so why are they using the station's genetic shit instead of their own?

Use both?
Play how you want to play - like - if there is a genetecist Changeling they can and should be able to use their consoles if they like to.

Genes are fun to spice up a round from time to time.

[KikiMofo]

I don't think we should ever place a limit on antags that we wouldn't place on an average player.

Antags are dangerous because they have additional ways to kill you on top of the usual ones.

If a particular combination is powerful, then we should have counters (Mutadone) or we should look into tweaking the mechanics to make them less exploitable.

Gotta agree with this. Antags should be able to do everything a normal player can do. No reason to restrict them arbitrarily. Sure we might get some OP fuckers that wipe the station but really a robust player can do that normally anyway if they get lucky. That's just part of the game.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

These things are very different. Just because one type of creature cannot do something does not mean another shouldn't be able to do that as well.
Stuff like this should not be generalized but talked about on a case by case basis.

Yeah and I'm saying in this case it doesn't make sense that genes intended for humanoid creatures work on changelings. Comparing changelings to mutated humans and monkies /is/ generalizing. Monkies are used specifically because their genetics are similar to humans. Very similar, they're closely related. Which implies that NT's genetic technology works best on things like humans. Mutated humans are also, naturally, very similar to humans. They just have different genes inserted/activated. It isn't like changelings where they're an entirely different genentic structure taking the general outside shape of a human for a short peroid.

[GORE]

Changelings absorb the complete genetic structure of a human and thus appear and function like humans from the outside.

---

My final point being: I do not agree with your balance opinion regarding this DJ-Fireball_did_this; but feel free to convince others.

Take care. <3

[BlackPhoenix]

So you're mixing lore reasons and mechanics reasons a lot here.

Lorewise: Changelings are adept at mimicing human physiology, why couldn't their genes be similar? Hell, the two things they can look like are humanoids and monkeys. The Shambling Abomination is just a whole bunch of humanoids and meat thrown in a creepy pile.

Mechanics: Changelings with DNA powers aren't overpowered. They just aren't. They have no way of speeding the process up compared to anyone else getting the powers.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Lorewise: Changelings are adept at mimicing human physiology, why couldn't their genes be similar? Hell, the two things they can look like are humanoids and monkeys. The Shambling Abomination is just a whole bunch of humanoids and meat thrown in a creepy pile.

Because they're just replicating the way humans look. In reality they're different. Their blood can move, they can eject stingers, they can change their entire structure at will, they're immune to space. They eat the genes and make their skin look the same but beyond that they have very little in common with a human or Earth mammal. Even with shambler when they just OD on human genes there's still a bunch of insect legs and crap.

Mechanics: Changelings with DNA powers aren't overpowered. They just aren't. They have no way of speeding the process up compared to anyone else getting the powers.

It's more to make them functionally any different from traitors.

[GORE]

You make them different by substracting stuff that they can choose to do? Does not make sense to me,...
They are not that different.

Blobs cannot use genetics - sure. They are a heck of a lot different.

But if you start with the reason that Changelings should not receive genes because they are not human,...
Then we have to do the same for Vampires and Werewolves...also do not forget Vampire Thralls (which are Zombies...so...which WERE human in the past).