An experiment.

[amaranthineApocalypse]

It seems that nowadays there's a general expectation that security is the job that is supposed to take down antags. This doesn't seem to fit in with the image of sec being a bunch of shitty NT mall rent a cops.

I feel like this may be a contributing factor to the apathy aboard the station itself. As such, I'd like to suggest an experiment.

What if we were to remove sec from the game for a couple of weeks, force the station to fight the antags themselves instead of just leaving it down to a single role which is rarely filled and often abused in both directions. Personally, I think this would lead to far more interesting conflicts and just generally be more fun all round. What do you all think?

[Ed Venture]

I knew this day would come. Where instead of fixing Security or cracking down on people who target security for shit reasons, we just ask for the role to be removed. If it's removed and everyone just gives up on changing the job and the community I am leaving. Too much gets removed and too little gets added to the game and if my favorite role is removed there's no reason to stick around anymore.

[Readster]

God no removing sec is a terrible idea.

The main issue IMO is that sec don't have enough non-antagonist stuff to do because people would rather take matters into their own hands when things go nuts. But generally sec is just a hard job to balance fun with. Removing it entirely will never help with that balance.

[Darkchis]

Vigilantism already exists, and it's a thing that happens all too often. Taking away the role that should deal with threats and crime is not going to make the crew any more proactive, it's simply going to be more "well they ain't hitting me right now, ain't my business" from the people that react in that way as of this very moment, considering a lot of rounds already lack security and that's just how it goes.

[Wire]

this is just the worst idea

[Frank_Stein]

Here's my opinion: There is absolutely nothing wrong with Sec how it currently is. Saying that it's boring, or there isn't enough to do is more about your lack of imagination and creativity with the role, rather than anything inherently wrong with it.

Yeah, there's downtime where you don't know who the antagonists are and are waiting to find something or for something to happen that will lead you to that. That doesn't mean there's nothing to do. Talk to people. Check up on areas. Help people find what they need. Check the cameras. Be proactive and interact with people and the environment.

Job roles in this game are just there as minor directions for how to play out your rounds. They only dictate your resources and access levels. You are free to do what you want outside that.

Just look at Staff Assistants. That's a job that's defined by its lack of a goal. But we don't have dozens of threads about finding more things for them to do.

[Xeram]

This issue with sec is not a lack of things to do or mechanics making the role unfun.

The issue is a community issue which makes anyone playing security attract a flock of shitheads who will literally sacrifice entire rounds just to bother security and make playing them an exercise in frustration rather than protecting anyone. Part of this comes from the fact there's no truly lasting consequence security can force on a shitter besides death, and applying murder to the problem tends to be extremely looked down upon by higher powers. You can do literally anything a security officer can do, but without the psychological target being applied to you, as any other job.

The only ways I could forsee to fix this is A. A community shift similar to attitude toward AI aka quit being shit. (unlikely) B. Give security some way to inflict lasting and meaningful consequences that aren't murder on someone that will prevent them from making themselves an issue. C. Don't give security a non-lethal consequence, give them a lot more leeway to smash the skulls of any idiot who tries to break into sec and fuck with sec constantly untill people get the memo.

[New525]

Bring back T.U.R.D.S

[Ed Venture]

C. Don't give security a non-lethal consequence, give them a lot more leeway to smash the skulls of any idiot who tries to break into sec and fuck with sec constantly untill people get the memo.

Option C is the best choice if you ask me. HoS's already get this leeway but it should be extended to at least mentors or security players who are well known.

---

Or these players if repeat offenders need to get punished by admins. I get alot of admins feel if they do that, that they need to be harder on security as well out of fear of security becoming shit again. But something, ANYTHING needs to be attempted here. When a security player of Five years tells you it's become too overwhelming and constantly requests some sort of assist from the powers that be. That should be enough to tell you something needs to be attempted here.

[Mordent]

Y'all (with one exception) are missing the point of the thread.

... I'd like to suggest an experiment. ...

... couple of weeks...

The idea being discussed here is "what if we did this for a couple of weeks for <insert reasons>", not "let's remove security" or "how can we make people want to play sec?".

Personally, I'd be totally okay with this as an experiment, as well as various other short-term experiments to see how the community reacts to (in some cases) a fairly radically different game.

[Ed Venture]

Convince me how this experiment will fix the issue of people fucking with security for no reason. Currently hardly anyone plays security cause of this and by removing it even for a short period won't do anything in my eyes. If you ask me this "experiment" has already been happening on it's own and nothing changed.

How long will this issue be ignored for?

---

Besides removing roles even for a short time will only remove depth from the game. I don't think removing roles forever or short times just to see what happens is not a good enough reason to remove depth from the game. It just comes across like a lazy way to shake things up by making it so players have less things to do.

[Grek]

C. Don't give security a non-lethal consequence, give them a lot more leeway to smash the skulls of any idiot who tries to break into sec and fuck with sec constantly untill people get the memo.

This is already the case? At least in my experience, no admin is going to stop you from having a "Three Strikes and you're Out the Airlock" policy for fucking with sec.

[amaranthineApocalypse]

I'm not suggesting this as a permanent measure by any stretch of the imagination. God no. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. That's a fucking awful idea.

But, i do want to see what would happen if we didn't have a role that was dedicated to taking down antagonists. As far as i see it there are two camps on what security should be, the role that's properly equipped to deal with antags or the shitty mall cops with a few extra tools. Frankly, this divide is fucking over security hard. We have a community mentality that treats them as the former and a ruleset that treats them like the latter.

I want to see what happens if we take them out for a moment to see what the community does when there's no expectation at all of security bailing your ass out when the space wizard comes calling. If it doesn't change the attitude of the community towards fighting antags then it needs to be buffed because as a fighting force, sec are kinda lacklustre and the community doesn't want to do it on their own. If it does? Then Sec might actually be causing the problem that it exists to solve and needs one hell of a rework.

The reason i suggest removing it is because i think it's the fastest way to temporarily absolve them of any responsibility. If anyone suggests anything else that'd have the same effect then i'm down for that too.

---

Y'all (with one exception) are missing the point of the thread.

... I'd like to suggest an experiment. ...

... couple of weeks...

The idea being discussed here is "what if we did this for a couple of weeks for <insert reasons>", not "let's remove security" or "how can we make people want to play sec?".

Personally, I'd be totally okay with this as an experiment, as well as various other short-term experiments to see how the community reacts to (in some cases) a fairly radically different game.

Exactly. Hell, a couple of weeks is probably too long. One week would suffice.

[Firebarrage]

There are plenty of ways security can deal with people being shit to them. Ways I handle this are:

"Saving" criminals: the rescuer gets the same punishment as the criminal.

Rushing into security: brig em.

Repeatedly fucking with sec: chop off an arm/leg for each repeated offence.

Robbing sec gear? Confiscate their stuff and brig them. Take their ID if it happens again.

Someone keeps running up and trying to bait you into a fight? Ignore them. Don't let then get what they want.

Essentially, if I have non traitors messing with sec my goal is to make their round not fun anymore. Don't do anything cutesy or silly when this happens, crack down on it and make sure the behavior gets punished. 

Don't be afraid to call on other officers to help you with these people. A big mistake I see with security is that people like to try to 1v3 the shitheads, while I've seen 3 cooperating officers beat back up to 7 little shits at once.

Of course, if things get really bad you may need to ahelp, but I've rarely had this happen.

[Frank_Stein]

Y'all (with one exception) are missing the point of the thread.

... I'd like to suggest an experiment. ...

... couple of weeks...

The idea being discussed here is "what if we did this for a couple of weeks for <insert reasons>", not "let's remove security" or "how can we make people want to play sec?".

Personally, I'd be totally okay with this as an experiment, as well as various other short-term experiments to see how the community reacts to (in some cases) a fairly radically different game.

That's fair. If you wanna tweak around with how long of a leash you give to Sec when it comes to force and presence, I'm fine with that.

I just think this is all player issues rather than mechanical issues with the role in its current state