Make dying less deadly

[Dr Zoidcrab]

Considering two c-saber hits will put you into crit, instantly remove 100 units of blood on top of causing massive bleeding, remove limbs and stun you long enough that you won't be able to move before you're paralysed completely, I don't see it becoming underpowered any time soon.

That said I'm against making it easier to save people from deep-crit. I'd be ok with the random death chance being changed or removed though.

As for the cryotubes and sleepers, I think it's more a problem of their location relative to other medical supplies. The cryotubes would be better off where the sleepers are now (or in the waiting room), and sleepers in places like crew quarters and the cargo lobby/central warehouse.

[Sundance]

Considering two c-saber hits will put you into crit, instantly remove 100 units of blood on top of causing massive bleeding, remove limbs and stun you long enough that you won't be able to move before you're paralysed completely, I don't see it becoming underpowered any time soon.

That said I'm against making it easier to save people from deep-crit. I'd be ok with the random death chance being changed or removed though.

As for the cryotubes and sleepers, I think it's more a problem of their location relative to other medical supplies. The cryotubes would be better off where the sleepers are now (or in the waiting room), and sleepers in places like crew quarters and the cargo lobby/central warehouse.

I agree with all of this, although would emphasize my previous point that flatlining (-100) could be reworked so the window is not so small. Really what I would like to see is more adequete stabalizing meds for extreme cases, which extends this window and gives you more time to work with. Would have to be similar to atropine, in that it would be pretty terrible to use for mild cases. I dunno. Ketamine perhaps? That's already in-game. More drugs say I! This way you don't need to change how crit works.

I agree also that the cryotube should be more local. Sleepers on the otherhand as they currently stand are a bit useless when med vending machines + open medbay exist. They should be used to treat specific ailments.

[Roomba]

I like the idea of some kind of paralyzing/knockout chem that also puts people in 'stasis' when in crit/deepcrit, ensuring that they don't suffer from cardiac arrest/failure or random death but not healing their existing damage. Gives alert doctors a method of stabilizing patients for longer-term treatment, can't be easily abused to pull yourself out of crit.

[Crystalwarrior]

Dumb balence suggestion. Make crit easier to get out of solo, but entering into crit at any time should reduce your total stamina level. Representing total wear and tear.

That way you don't want to go into crit repeatedly because it becomes much harder to superman your way out of death without cloning.

Eventually you can't horror villain your way out of death no more because your body can't physically fight it.

It also rather creepily makes an in game form of torture possible.

I'd really rather cyro be put to a more interesting use, like suspending critical patients like people have suggested. If nothing else, the healing from cyro should be slowed way down, to ensure other medical chemicals have a chance to be useful. I'd really rather we didn't have "magic button" healing chemicals that require so little interaction from doctors.

I like the idea of some kind of paralyzing/knockout chem that also puts people in 'stasis' when in crit/deepcrit, ensuring that they don't suffer from cardiac arrest/failure or random death but not healing their existing damage. Gives alert doctors a method of stabilizing patients for longer-term treatment, can't be easily abused to pull yourself out of crit.

I agree to these (except for getting out of crit solo, which should be barely fucking possible, like it is right now) and I ESPECIALLY like the "reduce max stamina with every subsequent crit". Though I think it should be possible to recover from "wear and tear" by regular excercise or something, giving gyms an actual use. Ofcourse, needs to have an applied cooldown and a required amount of excercises for it to really bring you back up to speed so it's something to fuss about.

Though I think, like others have said, remove random chance completely and make it a more consistent "death threshold".

[Frank_Stein]

I disagree. Maybe I'm going against the spirit of Goon here, but after playing on other servers, I feel it's so easy to live here. You can't even break a limb, tear an artery, have internal bleeding, or take crazy organ damage. All you have to do here is defib someone a few times, hypo them maybe with epi, and cryo pill them. With non-cryo it's trivial as well. I think a more severe medical and damage system would be better than going in the opposite direction.

And how many saber hits should someone survive? I mean, will I have to hit someone 5 times in the arm to delimb? It's a fucking energy sword. It's deadly, and so is disarming and having it used on you. How is this a problem? Buff literally all weapons and nerf spacemen.

I might be reading it wrong, but I think the suggestion is more that BEING in crit be less deadly, rather than being taken into crit as something hard to accomplish. 

C-sabers and shotguns would still be as deadly as they are, since they'd still do the same amount of lethal damage. It's leaving someone to die from the injuries that would be less likely to happen.

Dumb balence suggestion. Make crit easier to get out of solo, but entering into crit at any time should reduce your total stamina level. Representing total wear and tear.

That way you don't want to go into crit repeatedly because it becomes much harder to superman your way out of death without cloning.

Eventually you can't horror villain your way out of death no more because your body can't physically fight it.

It also rather creepily makes an in game form of torture possible.

I like the germ of this idea. Maybe you could even start imparting "traumas" to people that get put into crit too often. Like acquiring the spacephobia trait from being crited by space exposure, or the blood one from too much blood loss. Spacemen running around with PTSD. Maybe it's treatable with anti-anxiety medications?

[Cyfarfod]

Dumb balence suggestion. Make crit easier to get out of solo, but entering into crit at any time should reduce your total stamina level. Representing total wear and tear.

That way you don't want to go into crit repeatedly because it becomes much harder to superman your way out of death without cloning.

Eventually you can't horror villain your way out of death no more because your body can't physically fight it.

It also rather creepily makes an in game form of torture possible.

I like the germ of this idea. Maybe you could even start imparting "traumas" to people that get put into crit too often. Like acquiring the spacephobia trait from being crited by space exposure, or the blood one from too much blood loss. Spacemen running around with PTSD. Maybe it's treatable with anti-anxiety medications?

Electro-shock therapy; dangerous medications; having to talk to a psychiatrist.  MAN this has some SERIOUS fucking potential to umbrella out into some REALLY fun stuff!

[Sundance]

Really I feel we should firstly repurpose what we have if your looking to go down the "crit lingering after recovering" rather than new things to implement. Here's a few ideas.

Basically these ailments occur after reaching -100 health. Crit at -100 would be still deadly, but would be more escalating instead of random death.

Severe bruising: Occurs at -100 with significant brute.
Symptoms: Slow movement, reduced stamina
Procedure: Sleeper rest for 2-3 mins. Hey uses for the sleeper!

3rd Degree burns: Occurs at -100 with significant burn.
Symptoms: Twitching, collapsing + screaming. 
Procedure: Surgical skin graft. Scalpel on chest to remove burnt tissue, add synthflesh. Hey uses for synthflesh!

Acute toxicity: Occurs at -100 with significant toxin damage.
Symptoms: Hazy vision, vomiting, confused movement, -50 blood. 
Procedure: Blood transfusion. IVing blood to replenish the lost 50 blood. Hey uses for iv bags!

Yes these can all occur at once if you've been significantly fucked.

[Crystalwarrior]

Adding to this, what if newly cloned people started with like -50 max stamina and had to do regular excercise as if they've been in crit a lot of times? This would discourage people from just cloning themselves because of "wear and tear".

[Paineframe]

If dealing more than 200 damage shouldn't be enough to reliably incapacitate someone, then where should that line be drawn? Should it just be impossible to kill people without gibbing them or standing over them and personally strangling them to death? There's already a safe zone where people are critically wounded but can still patch themselves up without help if left alone - it's from 0HP to -99HP. You're not really talking about fundamentally changing crit - you're just suggesting making that safe zone even larger.

[Sundance]

I can't speak for superlagg, but currently there's nothing wrong with how shallow crit (0 to -99) is coded.
Its the random fatality of deep crit thats the issue. Something more reliably progressive would be better. Not because its easier, but because it makes sense. 

This is why I suggested the caveat of other ailments kicking in. The result of softening deep crit should not come without consequence. Also realistically getting mowed down by a saber you would not get up and run around after smacking a few patches. I'm not advocating realism here, but you gotta have balance. Balance is always fun when you introduce new things and weve been needing new ailments for a while.

[Superlagg]

I can't speak for superlagg, but currently there's nothing wrong with how shallow crit (0 to -99) is coded.
Its the random fatality of deep crit thats the issue. Something more reliably progressive would be better. Not because its easier, but because it makes sense. 

This is why I suggested the caveat of other ailments kicking in. The result of softening deep crit should not come without consequence. Also realistically getting mowed down by a saber you would not get up and run around after smacking a few patches. I'm not advocating realism here, but you gotta have balance. Balance is always fun when you introduce new things and weve been needing new ailments for a while.

Pretty much this, yeah! Shallow crit is more or less alright, just that once someone slips into the deep end is when shit gets unreasonable with its quick, somewhat random, boring death. Making it slower and more predictable might just make that part of the game more interesting for those involved.

You'd still be super incapacitated at -100 HP, just that there'd be more of a chance for those who want to save you to do something about it, something other than clone'n'scoot. Might also lessen the whoops-you're-dead surgery scenarios that occasionally happen.

I like this idea of lingering affects after exiting deep crit. Sounds like it'd be trading some of its lethality for much more lasting brutality. Brutality is good, and increasing the capacity for someone to be brutalized would be fun.

[Frank_Stein]

If dealing more than 200 damage shouldn't be enough to reliably incapacitate someone, then where should that line be drawn? Should it just be impossible to kill people without gibbing them or standing over them and personally strangling them to death? There's already a safe zone where people are critically wounded but can still patch themselves up without help if left alone - it's from 0HP to -99HP. You're not really talking about fundamentally changing crit - you're just suggesting making that safe zone even larger.

I'd imagine that the 0 to -99hp remains the same, while the -100 to -200 range means you're less likely to die outright, but can't really help yourself escape or fight back. You'll be at the mercy of a rescue party to intervene.

Bleed damage would probably be about the same, so if the person is still bleeding profusely, you'd be more or less safe leaving them to bleed to death.

This could be fun for the attacker, since the it'll give them a lot more wiggle room to:

1. Finish the person off with a few more wacks/shots to take them below -200
   
2. Get them bleeding badly enough that they can let blood loss kill them
   
3. Spend a bit of time gloating over the victim without having to worry about them fighting back
   
4. Take advantage of their vulnerable state to kidnap and move them somewhere kill them or heal them back up for gimmicks
   

[Superlagg]

This could be fun for the attacker, since the it'll give them a lot more wiggle room to:

1. Finish the person off with a few more wacks/shots to take them below -200
   
2. Get them bleeding badly enough that they can let blood loss kill them
   
3. Spend a bit of time gloating over the victim without having to worry about them fighting back
   
4. Take advantage of their vulnerable state to kidnap and move them somewhere kill them or heal them back up for gimmicks
   

This right here articulates something that I've been trying to for a while, about how people are so much more fun to murder while they're alive. I mean, sure, you can always gloat to their ghost, but it just isn't the same if they aren't there in (space)person.

More wiggle room for moustache twirling makes murder more meaningful and the afterlife less salty. Maybe, I hope.

[Paineframe]

I'd imagine that the 0 to -99hp remains the same, while the -100 to -200 range means you're less likely to die outright, but can't really help yourself escape or fight back. You'll be at the mercy of a rescue party to intervene.

Bleed damage would probably be about the same, so if the person is still bleeding profusely, you'd be more or less safe leaving them to bleed to death.

This could be fun for the attacker, since the it'll give them a lot more wiggle room to:

1. Finish the person off with a few more wacks/shots to take them below -200
   
2. Get them bleeding badly enough that they can let blood loss kill them
   
3. Spend a bit of time gloating over the victim without having to worry about them fighting back
   
4. Take advantage of their vulnerable state to kidnap and move them somewhere kill them or heal them back up for gimmicks
   

I dunno. To me, it sounds like everyone would just pick 1, so the actual effect of it would just be requiring antags to spend more ammo per kill or forcing them to carry around a second weapon for administering the coup de grace. 2 doesn't really seem like a desirable option for antags, and 3 and 4 are straight out, since most people just immediately commit suicide when they're at the mercy of an antag anyway.

[atomic1fire]

I'd imagine that the 0 to -99hp remains the same, while the -100 to -200 range means you're less likely to die outright, but can't really help yourself escape or fight back. You'll be at the mercy of a rescue party to intervene.

Bleed damage would probably be about the same, so if the person is still bleeding profusely, you'd be more or less safe leaving them to bleed to death.

This could be fun for the attacker, since the it'll give them a lot more wiggle room to:

1. Finish the person off with a few more wacks/shots to take them below -200
   
2. Get them bleeding badly enough that they can let blood loss kill them
   
3. Spend a bit of time gloating over the victim without having to worry about them fighting back
   
4. Take advantage of their vulnerable state to kidnap and move them somewhere kill them or heal them back up for gimmicks
   

I dunno. To me, it sounds like everyone would just pick 1, so the actual effect of it would just be requiring antags to spend more ammo per kill or forcing them to carry around a second weapon for administering the coup de grace. 2 doesn't really seem like a desirable option for antags, and 3 and 4 are straight out, since most people just immediately commit suicide when they're at the mercy of an antag anyway.

I think it would be funny if certain antags had a "FINISH THEM" button, which let them instakill anyone already in crit.

Or make it so that suplexing a crit person is an "deadly" move, because what kind of monster suplexes someone who's struggling to live.