Open Up HoS to All Mentors

[Noah Buttes]

This is probably a terrible idea.

Many heads of security have gone inactive in the community and show no real likelihood of returning. Furthermore, there have been increasing reports of players abusing the authority of the HoS position.

Just clear the slate and make everyone reapply.

If nothing else, it'll at least remind people that the job exists.

Scratch that. See discussion below for more information on opening up the HoS position to all mentors.

[Ed Venture]

I'd be down for it. Though not a purge of every HoS player. I still play at least three times a month though. It will also be nice if admins (if they decide to do this) tell us what would get you removed and how long the refresh would take.

Also please don't turn this thread into a player complaint thread. That won't get us anywhere and make it harder to remove anyone who may be abusing the role.

Also I've been taking a break from Security cause I've got sick of playing the role by myself and because of the treatment of a few players who are either holding a grudge towards the role or have a metagrudge towards me. I would adminhelp them each time but I have no clue if they even got yelled at or told to knock it off. No idea if they still do it as again I have not really played security in months and made an effort to stay away from these people.

[fosstar]

Also please don't turn this thread into a player complaint thread. That won't get us anywhere and make it harder to remove anyone who may be abusing the role.

Ed Venture is the worst HOS!!! They arrested me as a traitor!!! Dehos them asap.

But seriously i support this idea in part, we should remove shitty HOSes and inactive ones, however removing them all might cause a shitler surge because "NO HOS NOW LOL TIME TO GREYTIDE LAMO"

[Vitatroll]

Sounds good to me. The game and it's culture has changed over time -- quite a bit, actually. Spring cleaning sounds reasonable.

The temporary lull in HoS activity won't harm anything. Those who main HoS will probably roll sec, cap, hop, or something similar. The hos ID just gives you a bit more authority and a few extra toys that nobody uses. There's really not all that much difference between a certified badass and an uncertified badass.

[Roomba]

I'd be down for this. There's a whole lot of old HOSes lingering around from the bad old days who only ever turn up once in a while to run around and be shitters with sec gear. Anyone who's been active in playing sec/HOS recently can probably just reapply straightaway.

[Ed Venture]

I'm not really a fan of clearing everyone out. I figured just seeing who is active and not active and removing the inactive people would be good enough. Removing people that are shit will take awhile as it that will need more admin supervision. I'm not super active but I'm active enough that I at least play a few times each month. Pretty sure most of the people who are around today won't even recognize my in game name. It'll make reapplying a pain and could very well be a undeserved punishment.

[Roomba]

The issue is that the only point where the community actually has any input on the matter is when they're actually applying for HoS., and the terrible HOSes still play - it's how we know they're terrible. I'd rather see the terrible HoS players gone than the inactive ones, and it's no big loss to someone who doesn't even play anymore.

[NateTheSquid]

yes just remove all HoS', don't remove their status as mentor, it's much easier to tell if a mentor is being shit. then people can reapply at their leasure. there is no problem with wiping them all at once. when reapplying, that's where people can go '"this guy murders all prisoners as HoS, no thanks"

[Ed Venture]

The issue is that the only point where the community actually has any input on the matter is when they're actually applying for HoS., and the terrible HOSes still play - it's how we know they're terrible. I'd rather see the terrible HoS players gone than the inactive ones, and it's no big loss to someone who doesn't even play anymore.

I think we need some admin input in here as this discussion will need to hear their thoughts going forward.

I've asked people who they say are shit HoS players and I make an effort just to watch them for a few rounds and see if they do any of the things people tell me they do and I never see them do it. It's making me think these people are either lying about these HoS players or they cleaned up their act. I know it's not because the admins are not doing their jobs cause they respond to me most of the time and even send me PMs in the game when I am HoS when they need me to explain my actions or need my point of view on things so they can have a clearer picture on whatever they are dealing with. So I know that I am being watched when playing HoS so it's safe to assume so are they most of the time too.

I don't think we are at a point where there are so many shit HoS players that we need to remove them all and start over. I'm sorry but we are not at that point yet, not even close. We are not at The T.U.R.D.S level of bad.

(Especially since whenever we have this topic people mostly mention a certain HoS player more than others)

Punish the few not the whole group. I'm fine with inactive and "shit" HoS players being removed, but all of them? Nah, they already made their apps and the community already had their say. They already proven more then once that they can be trusted. They should not be punished for things they themselves had no part in.

[Dr Zoidcrab]

The HoS is a massive target for mindslaving, having his ID/equipment stolen and changelings or stable mutagen shenanigans, and having a position of trust also increases the backlash to percieved shittery. Which is one of the problems with the community having input to this sort of thing.

[Ed Venture]

 Furthermore, there have been increasing reports of players abusing the authority of the HoS position.

I showed this thread to Spyguy and Zewaka and this is what they said in response

[Roomba]

The HoS is a massive target for mindslaving, having his ID/equipment stolen and changelings or stable mutagen shenanigans, and having a position of trust also increases the backlash to percieved shittery. Which is one of the problems with the community having input to this sort of thing.

The community is already trusted to provide input when someone applies for HoS for the first time, and that input is only going to be refined by having actually seen the person in action. I'd trust the community's opinion of someone's playstyle as an aggregate over several rounds over an admin's, who might have more insight into what's going on on one particular round but less on the player as a whole. Particularly if the player is constantly taking advantage of lowpop rounds when admins aren't around to get away with stuff they wouldn't do otherwise.

I haven't seen one like that i can ever recall

Case in point.

[Ed Venture]

The HoS is a massive target for mindslaving, having his ID/equipment stolen and changelings or stable mutagen shenanigans, and having a position of trust also increases the backlash to percieved shittery. Which is one of the problems with the community having input to this sort of thing.

The community is already trusted to provide input when someone applies for HoS for the first time, and that input is only going to be refined by having actually seen the person in action. I'd trust the community's opinion of someone's playstyle as an aggregate over several rounds over an admin's, who might have more insight into what's going on on one particular round but less on the player as a whole. Particularly if the player is constantly taking advantage of lowpop rounds when admins aren't around to get away with stuff they wouldn't do otherwise.

I haven't seen one like that i can ever recall

Case in point.

I play on low pop rounds whenever I can and like I said I watch the HoS players that play as well. I've never seen what you described to me happen at all. So either four things are happening.

One: You are lying cause you hate a certain HoS player.

Two: The person cleaned up their act since and you have not noticed.

Three: The Admins are not doing their job and letting them slip by.

And lastly Fourth: I am covering for other HoS players. Which I can tell you is not the case cause anyone who knows my history can tell you I wanted to be a HoS to root out Shit Security.

So when you first told me these things in the IRC I wanted to document it so I at least had proof if no action was taken and I never saw anything from the HoS players I'd watched that were breaking any rules. You gave me alot of details in IRC as well even an name so it was not too hard to catch that person when they were playing. I really hate to insinuate that you are a liar and I deeply apologize that I am but the behavior you told me happens I've never seen, not once even when I actively went searching for it.

If you are right and the things you've told me are happening but nothing is being done then I would put the blame on the Admins not on all the HoS players you want purged. Not all are shit and they don't deserve to undergo the whole process over again cause a few are abusing the trust placed in them.

All I can say is start recording your rounds since no action is being taken to these people you deem "Shit HoS Players" cause where I am standing it looks like you just have a grudge against some.

[Huff H Law]

Just make HoS available to everyone, IMO. I mean, why not?

[Roomba]

I play on low pop rounds whenever I can and like I said I watch the HoS players that play as well. I've never seen what you described to me happen at all. So either four things are happening.

One: You are lying cause you hate a certain HoS player.

Two: The person cleaned up their act since and you have not noticed.

Three: The Admins are not doing their job and letting them slip by.

And lastly Fourth: I am covering for other HoS players. Which I can tell you is not the case cause anyone who knows my history can tell you I wanted to be a HoS to root out Shit Security.

So when you first told me these things in the IRC I wanted to document it so I at least had proof if no action was taken and I never saw anything from the HoS players I'd watched that were breaking any rules. You gave me alot of details in IRC as well even an name so it was not too hard to catch that person when they were playing. I really hate to insinuate that you are a liar and I deeply apologize that I am but the behavior you told me happens I've never seen, not once even when I actively went searching for it.

If you are right and the things you've told me are happening but nothing is being done then I would put the blame on the Admins not on all the HoS players you want purged. Not all are shit and they don't deserve to undergo the whole process over again cause a few are abusing the trust placed in them.

All I can say is start recording your rounds since no action is being taken to these people you deem "Shit HoS Players" cause where I am standing it looks like you just have a grudge against some.

I don't want to bog the thread down by making it about one particular player. I'll concede that 2 might very well be the case - computer troubles and life in general have ensured that I haven't had very much time to spare for running around as a spaceman recently. I'll believe your reports if you say you haven't seen anything especially egregious from them, so I'd appreciate if you extended that same courtesy to me.

What happens when 3 is the case, though? In almost every single instance where I've brought up specific complaints, I've been told that 'this isn't the place for that', usually followed by the person in question posting just to taunt me. It's hard to see if the adminhelps being sent actually have had any effect, and it seems like the community only ever has one shot at determining whether a person is abusing a role or not.