[MERGED PR] Gives captain a mindshield

[Angel]

Lol, regular mind hacks already does not work well with classic, if anything, reviving a ghost would work MUCH better with classic than how regular mind hacks works, since currently often mind hacks are just used on "robust" people

For context: i recall we had the problem with people suiciding roundstart if they didn't roll antag. The problem was not the same people being mindhacked often, but people trying to cheat the system.

You will have people antag fishing with mindhacks being a ghost call or not, meanwhile mindhacks being a ghost call makes using them in a meta way much harder, since the "robust" person you want hacked would have to be dead, and also if you were trying to mindhack a metabuddy, and then there's also the RNG of ghost calls. Overall, a ghost call is always much better than a 1 click button to turn anyone you want into an antag.

[Glamurio]

Really not a big fan of this proposal. Mindhacks are a fun way to involve more people in your scheme as a traitor. It furthers cooperation rather than lone wolf rambo style gameplay, and it makes sense for you to want powerful allies. As people mentioned, doing this will merely just make people target the HoP or other Heads instead of the captain, until eventually everybody has a mindshield. I don't understand the issue with the captain being untrustworthy either, that's a subjective thing which it comes with the territory of having a lot of power on a station and since they already can't be traitor anymore this is a niche issue to begin with.

[Solwra]

I think having some sort of visual and/or sound queue that someone is being mindhacked would be better to nerf mindhacks, additionally you could add a couple of seconds of incapacitation of the target in which the mindhacking starts to kick in. The target would be basically knocked out and it would be obvious to the crew something is wrong, allowing a level of counterplay to it if done in a reckless position.

This means mindhacking requires a bit of extra caution and generally means it will be harder to target High Value Targets like Captain, which rarely in my experience is alone.

[Silent Majority]

It makes them fall over and says in chat that Terry Tator hacked Rodney Robuster the Captain

[meaow589]

I think mindhack now is already powerful as it should be and since the command almost have mind shield only antag need now is use deluxe mindhack instead o think add mind shield to every command role is good idea and disagree to nerf mindhack because it is great right now.

[Kotomata]

strange phenomenon where people seem to be interpreting this PR as a mindhack nerf (its just a captain buff PR), and this thread as a mindhack balance discussion thread

all it does really is shift captain further towards being a serious/responsible role, giving the job essentially the same dependability as a security officer, which makes perfect sense considering the captain should be at a similar level of authority and trust as a security officer (ideally higher since they're The Captain)

as for slippery slope fearmongering i honestly don't think anyone wants or has asked for HoP (or anyone else) to get a mindshield, it's unlikely that this string of captain-related tonal shift PRs is going to lead to mindshields being handed out like candy. i do agree that mindhacks could use either a re-imagining or a balance pass, as their current state is kind of boring and typically results in metafriends giving each other antag status, but that should really be handled in a different thread and a different PR

and disregarding literally everything else this is just a good change, it keeps consistency with non-antag/gamer geared roles getting mindshields and encourages people to go mindhack literally anyone other than the job with most gamer items (not that itll prevent it utterly but whatever)

[Kotlol]

Basically as I see this going: "Shield captain"

Okay shield.. Now they go after HoP. Shield hop.

Okay now they go after the heads to sabotage the AI.

The reasons for captain shielding is: "Armor + Gun + Security Acces + AI access + Changing ID access"
While the hop is: "Changing ID Access + AI Access"
And the heads are: "AI Access"

If the HoP comes into security, Security will Cntrl+E and then arrest them if they start fighting or nicking stuff.

But as some people say, they love mind hacking captains, but also it's frequent.

My suggestion is litterly, mind shield the captain but.. mind shield fails when the target is in crit or something to make the mind shield fail temporarely so if you want that security officer or captain to be taken over, it's gonna take extra effort.

[Chatauscours]

Okay. I realise I probably should have posted this way sooner, but as it says in the PR description : "The main aim is to make captain a more trusted and responsible role, especially now that # 18275 is coming". ( 18275 being the armoury auth with nuclear disk PR )
The idea is to make the captain more trusted and respected by the crew and security (which they already should be, considering that they are literally everyone's boss), not to nerf mindhacks.
I am not and will not encourage the idea of the HoP or any other command member for that matter (except the HoS), getting a mindshield.

My way of thought literally was:
Start ------ Problem ? ---- Captain isn't trusted enough --- why ? ---> often gets mindhacked ---- why ? -----> big goodie bag ------
--- solution ? ----> reduce goodies ---- possible ? ------ > no ---- other solution ? ---- > mindshield ---- possible ? ---- > Yes. -> PR it.


I am not denying that mindhacks themselves might need a balance change, but this is way outside of the scope of this PR.
This is just a way for the crew to respect and trust a bit more their captains, and not fully ignore every other announcement made by caps under the pretext that they might be mindhacked.

[Kotlol]

I mean we did remove captain from the antag list on Classic since everytime they became an antag it was the SAME PROBLEM.

"Subsume AI, grab gun, go on a rampage"

Now we got it but for Mind hacks.

[Frank_Stein]

My suggestion is litterly, mind shield the captain but.. mind shield fails when the target is in crit or something to make the mind shield fail temporarely so if you want that security officer or captain to be taken over, it's gonna take extra effort.

Make the Captain Hat a mind shield. Like it's lined with tinfoil

[Wisemonster]

Captain receiving a mind shield and not the HoP is due to a few reasons, mainly:
1. The captain is being moved to a more trusted role, which is difficult if they are easily mindhacked
2. The HoP does not spawn with a set of armor and a gun/sword, meaning them getting mindhacked is not as dangerous as the captain
3. The HoP does not have AA on them, rather they have to make the AA (still easy, but more timely than just handing over your current ID)
4. Captain spawns with a disk that let's him authorize the armory without needing 3 sec/heads or a HoS. (Both with packets and with the currently tmed pr for the nuke disk)

[Fuppy]

after having done some reading on this thread for a bit, I've come to agree with the PR. especially considering the main focus is shifting captain to a trusted role in the same way sec and the HoS is, it makes perfect sense for them to have a mindshield. I really can't envision a future where the HoP gets one. not only because the stated intention is that this is just a PR to make cap more trusted, but HoP doesn't have nearly the same amount of gear and influence that the captain does. I guess you can get your ID done up, but I've personally never mindhacked the HoP just for access... usually its the spare I gun for. can't stress enough that I don't see this leading to HoP or any other members of command getting a mindshield. it just wouldn't make any mechanical sense.

Captain has a pretty decent weapon, armor, and is literally the boss of the station for the most part. it makes sense that they're being shifted into this position via such a PR.

[Glamurio]

My suggestion is litterly, mind shield the captain but.. mind shield fails when the target is in crit or something to make the mind shield fail temporarely so if you want that security officer or captain to be taken over, it's gonna take extra effort.

Make the Captain Hat a mind shield. Like it's lined with tinfoil

This is unironically a good idea. A great idea, even.

Captain receiving a mind shield and not the HoP is due to a few reasons, mainly:
1. The captain is being moved to a more trusted role, which is difficult if they are easily mindhacked
2. The HoP does not spawn with a set of armor and a gun/sword, meaning them getting mindhacked is not as dangerous as the captain
3. The HoP does not have AA on them, rather they have to make the AA (still easy, but more timely than just handing over your current ID)
4. Captain spawns with a disk that let's him authorize the armory without needing 3 sec/heads or a HoS. (Both with packets and with the currently tmed pr for the nuke disk)

The HoP is quite literally able to turn himself into the second captain, and in about 30% of all games this happens to some degree. Yes, he doesn't spawn with captain gear, but he has access to armor and I'd argue the power difference between them is negligible.

Disk to authorize the armory is a testmerge. Technically you're discussing a fix to a problem that hasn't even been approved yet.

My point is, making the captain more "trustworthy" while keeping the HoP untrustworthy doesn't solve the issue, it merely shifts the focus on the next best target, which is HoP. The reasons people want to mindhack the captain are all access (particularly for upload), access to all radio channels (particularly Sec) and potentially access to good gear. HoP still meets two out of those criteria.

[Chatauscours]

My point is, making the captain more "trustworthy" while keeping the HoP untrustworthy doesn't solve the issue, it merely shifts the focus on the next best target, which is HoP. The reasons people want to mindhack the captain are all access (particularly for upload), access to all radio channels (particularly Sec) and potentially access to good gear. HoP still meets two out of those criteria.

The issue that this PR aims to fix is that the captain is not trusted enough by the crew. Respectfully, the HoP's status is not concerned by this PR. This is a PR centered around the captain, not mindhacks in general.

Mindhacks might be needing a rework, but I sincerely urge you to start another thread about it, since this PR is only about the captain getting more trust and respect, which the HoP, in my opinion, already has enough for its position.

[Kotlol]

My suggestion is litterly, mind shield the captain but.. mind shield fails when the target is in crit or something to make the mind shield fail temporarely so if you want that security officer or captain to be taken over, it's gonna take extra effort.

Make the Captain Hat a mind shield. Like it's lined with tinfoil

This is basically the most fun fix.
Gives value to a captain's hat/helmet (also put it in the helmet)

It gives a nice meta aspect of: "Not wearing the captain's hat? SUPICIOUS!"
Gives a stupid hat more "respect"