Making cyborgs appealing again

[Carlarc]

Just as an addendum so what i'm saying actually makes sense:

Let's say you are the Captain Leeroy Jenkins and you get horribly murdered and shoved in a crate to rot.

When you are borged, you lose your identity and your free will. You are no longer the captain. You are the metal servant. You are Rho-18, or Beta-42, etc.

However, if you were put in a brainvat, you retain your identity as "Leeroy Jenkins Brain" and you have your free will, AND you have the ability to wear your captains hat. You are not bound to laws and you are, although a little less, the captain.

I would easly pick the borg in that situation, Borgs while limited in their laws will have greater flexablity then a brain in a jar who has a hat on (Why would ANYONE listen the useless brain when there is a hop next in line) not to mention the fact that i am limited to ONE item and have my round easly ruined by some asshole who wrenches me.


In matter of fact,A borg can wear the captains hat AND his outfit so wearing a hat isn't even part of the equation!

Yes, that's your opinion! That's why it isn't a 'replacement' for the borg, but a second option. There are already 2 people on this thread that like it, and it's now 3.

[Dabir]

Wasn't there some plan to give engy borgs a mini-MechComp dispenser? Whatever happened with that?

[Roomba]

Couple of thoughts on the new backpack-style borg tool interface:

Equipping anything and storing it sends it to the bottom of the list. For modules like medborgs, which often have to juggle several dozen tools to keep a person alive, this means a constant and ever-shifting inventory. I think it'd be best if everything just had a fixed place so inventory management is easier.

Clicking on page up and down to scroll the list is naturally a little slower than scrolling, although I'm not sure what else I would suggest. Maybe a rectangular grid across the screen that shows every item, perhaps?

Finally just a minor thing, to equip a thing from the list you have to click on the object itself, but when trying to use an equipped object, you actually have to click the square just outside the object to have it selected.

Quoting myself from last page because it kinda got skimmed over and I think it'd be worth mentioning, at least.

Also the new cyborg module researcher is fun, but it's kind of slow and expensive. It takes about ten minutes of research to get a module capable of a basic set of tools, and actually buying a module with all that stuff attached costs about 10k per borg. That's not even mentioning all the esoteric bits and bobs you have to collect to unlock any of the more fun items. It doesn't help that they share research budget with geneticists, but the geneticists can burn through all of it in the first couple of minutes while the roboticists have a limited per-item research boost. I've only tried it once so maybe it's a bit more balanced than it looks at first glance, but I think research could stand to be cheaper and quicker, and mass-producing custom modules cheaper as well, so it works as a viable alternative to churning out bog-standard modules for borgs.

[Roomba]

Another thing is that with no budget the rewriter is basically useless. Geneticists can still build up resources at a slow but workable rate even without relying on the budget, and can bypass that entirely if they can get someone to stand still in the gene scanner long enough. In robotics, after you wait the eternity it takes to research stuff without a budget and unlock one or two things, you're sunk because you can't make a module anyway.

[Frank_Stein]

Couple of thoughts on the new backpack-style borg tool interface:

Equipping anything and storing it sends it to the bottom of the list. For modules like medborgs, which often have to juggle several dozen tools to keep a person alive, this means a constant and ever-shifting inventory. I think it'd be best if everything just had a fixed place so inventory management is easier.

Clicking on page up and down to scroll the list is naturally a little slower than scrolling, although I'm not sure what else I would suggest. Maybe a rectangular grid across the screen that shows every item, perhaps?

Finally just a minor thing, to equip a thing from the list you have to click on the object itself, but when trying to use an equipped object, you actually have to click the square just outside the object to have it selected.

Quoting myself from last page because it kinda got skimmed over and I think it'd be worth mentioning, at least.

Also the new cyborg module researcher is fun, but it's kind of slow and expensive. It takes about ten minutes of research to get a module capable of a basic set of tools, and actually buying a module with all that stuff attached costs about 10k per borg. That's not even mentioning all the esoteric bits and bobs you have to collect to unlock any of the more fun items. It doesn't help that they share research budget with geneticists, but the geneticists can burn through all of it in the first couple of minutes while the roboticists have a limited per-item research boost. I've only tried it once so maybe it's a bit more balanced than it looks at first glance, but I think research could stand to be cheaper and quicker, and mass-producing custom modules cheaper as well, so it works as a viable alternative to churning out bog-standard modules for borgs.

Yeah, regarding borg inventory, couldn't it just be added to that tab at the lower left that genetics powers are on?

[babayetu83]

theres a lot of QoL changes that should be made that would make cyborg much more enjoyable


is this a good place to list them or should i find somewhere else

[BaneOfGiygas]

theres a lot of QoL changes that should be made that would make cyborg much more enjoyable


is this a good place to list them or should i find somewhere else

Yep, this is good of a place as any, I'd say.

[Zafhset]

The removal and nerfing of appealing borg modules makes borging less feasible than before, even less so if there isn't any roboticist on duty.

[DyssalC]

The amount of research it takes to properly make a module is too much. Two roboticists and a HoP with all access with an $110000 budget were only able to unlock a hand full of module pieces by the end of a 60 minute round, and by the end of said round all the budget was consumed.

I understand the need to not overpower the module researcher, but at the same time I don't considering you nerfed the starter modules with the intention of giving incentive to do research (I assume), but research is INCREDIBLY time consuming and carries VERY LITTLE payoff.

Also, do the artifacts even do anything? I researched a martian cell, took a long time, researched 100% Martian, don't know what it did.

Feedback:

-God damn it's slow
-God damn it takes so much research for so little payoff
-Half the stuff I need to make an effective module requires access beyond a roboticist, and other means of acquiring it are incredibly time consuming, meaning I'm losing research time and borging time
-I like the ability to make sec borgs
-I am confused by artifact research paths, specifically what they do

Suggestions:

-Upgrade speeds should be tweaked more
-Make it so that you can view other things BESIDES the research progress screen when researching something
-Add in some more special things you can't get in standard modules that aren't weapon oriented
-Replace patch stack (or add in addition to) with separate patch types, and maybe even throw in a few special patches with higher research requirements, like synth-flesh patches or charcoal patches
-Maybe make it so that researching the item itself reduces the research required to unlock said item
-Include more items in the research list (stun batons, skulls, traitor gear if that's not already a thing, etc.)

[UrsulaMejor]

now that two of the three fun modules have been removed (construction, medical, brobot) there's basically no reason for me to play borg anymore.

the whole point of cyborgs are to be specialized humans, good at one thing and not at others.

with the new changes, every single borg is now less useful than a human in every respect

[BaneOfGiygas]

Disclaimer: I have not had the chance to experiment with module research, so I'll be going off of what other folks have been saying.

First off, I'm pretty sure that Brobots are still one of the default modules. So are medborgs. I think that the tightening of standard modules helps remove all of the extraneous and barely-used modules, rebalancing things a bit. As far as flexibility goes, I'd like to repeat a point I made before: Don't the tiny little medbots and securitrons that putter around the station basically fit the "lack of flexibility but really good at one thing" criteria already? Why make the cyborgs their larger, player-controlled cousins?

The way I see it, cyborgs should be a middleground between complete specialization and the autonomy of humans. Cyborgs can't be as versatile as humans, but the main problem with being a cyborg, and the problem with many of the old modules, is that it's hard to do your one job when that job does not need to be done. If there's already someone mining asteroids, what's the miningborg supposed to do? If there are no faulty wirings, what's the engieborg supposed to do? If there are no hull breaches, (which is a rather unlikely scenario, but still) what is the constructionborg supposed to do?

Humans, in those scenarios, can just wander off and do something else. They can pick up a new job. But cyborgs can't do it as easily, not without someone willing to switch out their modules and a trip all the way over to the nearest docking station. What module research does is that it expands the cyborg's functionality and usefulness while still maintaining a limited scope of utility. Maybe the medborg wants to become a combat medic and stun evildoers while helping out their victims, maybe the engieborg wants to do some construction work. Module research lets that happen.

But this is all conceptually. Practically, there have been complaints all around about how godawfully long it takes to do anything for module research, which makes this potential application falls flat. If this is tweaked to make it more feasible during normal play, then I think it will make cyborgs more useful, not less.

[Roomba]

Yeah, if the module researcher is straight up meant to be a replacement for old modules, it needs quite a bit of tweaking. I still stand by the fact research times should be shorter, and also modules should depend on materials and not credit or nebulous research points, to keep it consistent with the fabricator. Otherwise equipping even a single borg is prohibitively expensive, let alone multiple borgs.

And I know it's been probably considered, but maybe re-researching the same item shouldn't give you such a large penalty. Shoving the same item in over and over, especially for some of the rarer items, requires at the very least a little mechanics/QM collaboration, and having to find all-new items makes leveling up certain areas extremely hard.

Not sure if this whole scavenger hunt thing is the best way to go about it either. Realistically 90% of custom modules are going to be basically nerfed med modules because all the convenient materials on hand are medical items and scavenging from other departments takes a lot of work. I think a way to conduct research on an area manually in addition to taking apart stuff in it would be ideal.

Some kind of minigame attached to the thing would be a nice bonus as well, I feel. Right now the thing is just 'shove money in and watch a timer go up' and if I wanted to play a facebook game that's what I'd be doing.

Finally, until it gets properly balanced, maybe the existing modules shouldn't be nerfed so much. Right now 90% of borgs suicide immediately in frustration, which is kind of a jump from old borgs (about 50%).

[Roomba]

Disclaimer: I have not had the chance to experiment with module research, so I'll be going off of what other folks have been saying.

First off, I'm pretty sure that Brobots are still one of the default modules. So are medborgs. I think that the tightening of standard modules helps remove all of the extraneous and barely-used modules, rebalancing things a bit. As far as flexibility goes, I'd like to repeat a point I made before: Don't the tiny little medbots and securitrons that putter around the station basically fit the "lack of flexibility but really good at one thing" criteria already? Why make the cyborgs their larger, player-controlled cousins?

The way I see it, cyborgs should be a middleground between complete specialization and the autonomy of humans. Cyborgs can't be as versatile as humans, but the main problem with being a cyborg, and the problem with many of the old modules, is that it's hard to do your one job when that job does not need to be done. If there's already someone mining asteroids, what's the miningborg supposed to do? If there are no faulty wirings, what's the engieborg supposed to do? If there are no hull breaches, (which is a rather unlikely scenario, but still) what is the constructionborg supposed to do?

Humans, in those scenarios, can just wander off and do something else. They can pick up a new job. But cyborgs can't do it as easily, not without someone willing to switch out their modules and a trip all the way over to the nearest docking station. What module research does is that it expands the cyborg's functionality and usefulness while still maintaining a limited scope of utility. Maybe the medborg wants to become a combat medic and stun evildoers while helping out their victims, maybe the engieborg wants to do some construction work. Module research lets that happen.

But this is all conceptually. Practically, there have been complaints all around about how godawfully long it takes to do anything for module research, which makes this potential application falls flat. If this is tweaked to make it more feasible during normal play, then I think it will make cyborgs more useful, not less.

The issue with this conceptual scenario is that to get a decent loadout in any particular you have to be researching from roundstart and blitzing research in one particular field. It takes half a round of researching purely medical items and most of the station budget to make a module equal to the bog-standard one (on a per-borg basis, to boot.) Same for construction, engineering, etc. It'd be a nice idea if you could e.g. slap on an RCD on a medical module but it's simply not happening with research as it currently stands.

As an addendum to my earlier point: please allow us to just add researched items to modules you chuck in. There's no reason for a fully kitted out medical module to immediately turn into a blank module when loaded in.

[UrsulaMejor]

I spent an entire round with Mike stealing items for him to research. after 40 straight minutes we couldn't even afford to recreate a mining module, let alone the rcd tools. in fact, it was much easier to make a basic sec borg (flash and duct tape) than it was to make anything helpful!

research times need to be shortened. module costs need to not be tied to the budget. everything should be much easier in general.

I also think all the default tools should be in the custom module builder by default, OR, you should be able to add on things to existing modules without erasing them.