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Making cyborgs appealing again
#1
While hanging out in deadchat, it's rather frequently that I hear people complaining about getting turned into a cyborg vs getting cloned. To most, it seems like an absolutely abhorrent prospect. After a bit of thought, I think I understand why; it's because, by and large, there isn't anything a cyborg can do that a flesh and blood crew member can't already do, and the number of useless/obsolete modules means that there are usually only a few plausible options for what to do as a cyborg. Either you're a construction borg, you're a medical borg, or you're a brobot. That's pretty much it.

Standard module is pretty much useless except for the free efficiency upgrade, Engieborgs are rendered mostly redundant by the construction borgs, Janitorborgs are basically the exact same as the jobs they bear resemblance to, mining and hydroponics borgs are rarely ever in demand, and chemborgs are basically stunted medborgs due to the lack of a license to injure.

Meanwhile, construction borgs have an infinite-ammo RCD, and medborgs have infinite patches and are the go-to module for rogue borgs due to their scalpel/saw. The discrepancy between the usefulness of these two modules and basically all of the other ones is incredibly skewed, and anyone who takes their job as a cyborg even somewhat seriously will always, without exception, pick one of those two modules.

The inherent problem lies in the fact that cyborgs are redundant. If given the choice, there are very few people who would want to be borged as opposed to being cloned, because they know that becoming a cyborg basically means sacrificing a good portion of your capability for independent action for very little positive gain. This, consequentially, results in Roboticists having very little of a job to do. If very few people want to be borged, the Roboticist doesn't have much of a use for all of the cyborg bodies they're making. Follow?

If we are to alleviate this, something needs to be done to make playing as cyborgs appealing. Maybe not MORE plausible than getting cloned, but enough that the Roboticist actually ends up having a job. The way I see it, we need to give the other modules purpose again and give cyborgs a bit more widespread use. There is a niche for highly-specialized robots that do their one job with utmost proficiency, but it's just that: A niche. Not something that the common player is willing to put up with. To an extent, that niche is already filled by things like medbots and floorbots.

I have a few ideas for making this work, the first of them being the merging of some modules, mainly the ones that get shunted due to other modules doing their job but better. Merging the medborgs and chemborgsinto a general science borg would solve the chemborg's redundancy while simultaneously giving medborgs more variety in their medical treatments. Engieborgs, meanwhile, can be merged into construction borgs to make a general repair borg.

The Hydroponics borg could be merged with the discontinued Vendor module to become an all-purpose Catering borg, able to produce and deliver all sorts of delicious treats to the crew as well as functioning as an assistant to not only the botanists, but the chef and barman as well! Maybe give them a built-in stove and mixer for on-the-go cooking.

The final point I wanted to make was on the unlimited RCD ammo and patches that cyborgs have. To be perfectly honest, it's just a bit ridiculous, and it's pretty much the reason why construction borgs and medical borgs have a monopoly on all of the modules. Instead of having infinite ammo, we could give the patches separate charge meters that require recharging at the docking stations when they run out. That way, these modules can still have their ability for acting on emergency situations, but it limits the extent to which medical borgs can make someone effectively immortal by spamming patches, as well as the construction borg's ability to cover the airlocks in escape with about ten more airlocks.

This is all pretty much off the top of my head, but the way I see it, robotics has needed some kind of revamp for a while. Feel free to give your own suggestions in addition to/instead of these and provide any criticisms. Hopefully what I've been saying makes some kind of sense.
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#2
There was a thread of general borg suggestions a while ago, there were some good ideas that were been looked into but I don't think they were ever implemented.

http://forum.ss13.co/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4106

Here it is. I don't think a catering borg would be very useful really, and I'm not sure why nerfing the med and construction borg would help make borgs more appealing. They're pretty much the main draw of being a borg as it is.
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#3
Roomba Wrote:I'm not sure why nerfing the med and construction borg would help make borgs more appealing. They're pretty much the main draw of being a borg as it is.
The problem, mainly, is that they are pretty much the ONLY draw of being a borg.
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#4
You have my support!
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#5
Roomba Wrote:Here it is. I don't think a catering borg would be very useful really
Forgot to speak on this point in my previous point. It might not be very useful, no. There'll always be some borg modules that are kinda gimmicky, and that's okay. It's just that some of the gimmicky modules we have now aren't even that good at being gimmicky, with the sole exception of the Brobot, who's the go-to gimmick module. Janitor borgs, the second cousin to the brobot as far as gimmickiness goes, is basically just a janitor who's made out of medal. Not only that, but they are a janitor who actually has to listen when people tell them to stop making the floors slippery.
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#6
The wiki specifically mentions a catering/vendoring module that was discontinued due to uselessness, though. I dunno, if the main suggestions are 'bring back a useless module', 'reduce module variety' and 'nerf the one thing that most people enjoy about being a borg', these seem less like suggestions to make borg more appealing and more a way to ensure the roboticist never works again.
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#7
why not just give cyborgs hands and the ability to wear clothing like normal people. that way the only difference between cloning and cyborgization is if you have to follow laws or not.

I mean, now you get to be nerfed player AND have to follow the will of someone else? it is no wonder people dont like being borged. If you think that it will make everyone want to be borged then my response is, so what? they SHOULD be superior to humans, thats the whole point of making them follow laws.
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#8
Dr_Bee Wrote:why not just give cyborgs hands and the ability to wear clothing like normal people. that way the only difference between cloning and cyborgization is if you have to follow laws or not.

I mean, now you get to be nerfed player AND have to follow the will of someone else? it is no wonder people dont like being borged. If you think that it will make everyone want to be borged then my response is, so what? they SHOULD be superior to humans, thats the whole point of making them follow laws.
The problem with making becoming a cyborg more reasonable than getting cloned is that we'd have the inverse problem: No one would get cloned because everyone would be flocking to robotics. This, consequentially, would make AI subversions way more dangerous due to the density of borgs. A balance needs to be made to make both options have their pros and cons but ultimately be on equal footing.
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#9
God dammit the forums zapped this bit of my post.

Roomba Wrote:The wiki specifically mentions a catering/vendoring module that was discontinued due to uselessness, though. I dunno, if the main suggestions are 'bring back a useless module', 'reduce module variety' and 'nerf the one thing that most people enjoy about being a borg', these seem less like suggestions to make borg more appealing and more a way to ensure the roboticist never works again.
The vendor module was discontinued due to uselessness and yet here we have approximately half the goddamn module library that is never used due to uselessness and another module that's frequently used even in spite of being specifically designed to have no useful functions. Clearly, there's a bigger problem here. Usefulness isn't always even a requirement for a job: Hell, if we got rid of all of the "useless" jobs on the station, there would actually be LESS variety as opposed to more of it. The idea is to bring back these so-called "useless" modules but make them entertaining enough that they are actually picked.

Roomba Wrote:'nerf the one thing that most people enjoy about being a borg'
It's one thing. That's the entire problem, it's the one thing. There are all of these things you can do as a cyborg, all of the modules and all of the different gizmos and gadgets and upgrades, and all of that basically gets booted out of the window because the only thing that's even worthwhile is the one thing. There needs to be more than just the one thing, there needs to be many things. Otherwise, the variety problem gets compounded even further due to the nature of the modules resulting in there being a very limited number of viable playstyles.
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#10
I wouldn't really nerf the medical or construction borgs just because, remember, you're trading away an incredible amount of freedom for a very limited subset of tools. If you're a construction borg and a human you care about goes down, you can't drag them to a med vendor and slap patches on them. You can't carry around a first aid. You can't do anything except construct/tear down, and even then only limited things.

Same with medics. Sure, you can heal people, and maybe the scalpel/saw are decent weapons, but you literally can do basically nothing else. If you get walled in, you are hopelessly trapped (no carrying around a set of tools for you!), you can't pick/up move things or write on papers or much else.

You also have to remember that you're trading away your mostly-guaranteed free will. As a human you're only at risk of mindslaving, and that isn't very common (especially if you aren't a well-known player). As a borg, all it takes is one person in the AI chamber (or even elsewhere!) and suddenly you have to drop what you're doing and follow new laws.


I think the solution lies in making the other modules more appealing. For example, stuff like the Janitor module perhaps having a bulit-in "trash carrier" that could collect garbage and automatically dump it onto the floor/into a proper chute, and a perma-wet mop (perhaps at the cost of some battery with use). (Maybe have a grab intent on a janitor borg would forcibly dump the contents of the internal trash cart, who knows.)


I think one thing that would probably make things a lot less frustrating is to remove the module rewriter and replace it with a self-serviceable one built into the charging station that takes about 30 seconds to do its job. That would go a long way towards making borgs more flexible.


Quote:This, consequentially, would make AI subversions way more dangerous due to the density of borgs. A balance needs to be made to make both options have their pros and cons but ultimately be on equal footing.
I think there are a few points worth considering:

- Making borg bodies requires a lot of resources. I think by default you can make 3 or 4 solid bodies without scrounging for extra supplies. Compare to cloning, where you generally won't run out if you recycle the deceased (+ a monkey pen full of more materials if you run low)
- Borgs have a built-in killswitch that is remotely triggerable and cannot be defended against without another human disabling it. In the worst case you can build one off-station or otherwise hidden and trigger it from there.

You can also off borgs fairly easily if you have a Roboticist, MD, or head ID; flash/stun baton, ID, screwdriver, empty hand.


It would be interesting if there were statistics kept on how many players were cloned/borged during a round.
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#11
Give janiborgs a high capacity (200u) bucket and an internal trash compacter. Internal trash compacter functions similarly to the engiborg's Atmospherics Transporter, you click a small-to-medium object with the internal trash compacter and you gather it inside of it. Then, when you're ready to compress, you just click the compacter and a piece of scrap is formed. Give it a 7 object limit, like a backpack, and let the janiborg click themselves with it to drop the contents of the compacter.
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#12
Don't make them TOO appeeling or the clowns will come a'runnin

B] *bows*

But yeah, bring all the modules UP to the standard of the construction module. You're giving up versatility for raw specific power.
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#13
Roomba Wrote:Here it is. I don't think a catering borg would be very useful really
Make it so the catering borg can click drag food into itself, storing them in compartments. It can feed people these things, or cook them with it's internal oven and then serve them that.
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#14
DyssalC Wrote:Give janiborgs a high capacity (200u) bucket and an internal trash compacter. Internal trash compacter functions similarly to the engiborg's Atmospherics Transporter, you click a small-to-medium object with the internal trash compacter and you gather it inside of it. Then, when you're ready to compress, you just click the compacter and a piece of scrap is formed. Give it a 7 object limit, like a backpack, and let the janiborg click themselves with it to drop the contents of the compacter.

The trash compactor should let them make metal/glass/pharosium leftovers from the things they consume. For hilarity this should sound exactly like a human eating something.

So people can make built with borg poop jokes, also recycle borg gimmicks.

Human poop is gross and abusable, borg poop you can put in a general manufacturer just sounds useful and green.
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#15
Also, if merging the chemborg and medborg isn't plausible, maybe make the chemborgs into a general resesarch borg, letting them interface with artlab, set up toxins mixtures, and maybe give them a hand tele or something of the sort? As stated before, there's very little that a chemborg can do on the default lawset.
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