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Making cyborgs appealing again
#31
Alright, here's my cyborg module lowdown extravaganza. I've double-checked this to the best of my ability, but if anything's off in some fashion, let me know. I tried to make this as simple as possible, not sure if I succeeded.

Standard
Pros: Efficiency Ugrade, gets a fire extinguisher for improvised jetpacking
Cons: Very little functionality beyond typical cyborg function. Camera monitor still has that piss-awful dropdown menu.
Verdict: Useless even by the standards of the infamously useless Staff Assistants. Pretty much never used except to nab the free Efficiency Upgrade.
Solution: Give them more potential for mischief. If the Brobot is the fun-loving, tune-spinning robot of parties, and if the Standard cyborgs are meant to be robotic Staff Assistabts, they could be effectively prank machines in contrast to that. Give them an upgrade or gadget allowing them to mimic nearby voices a la the buttbot, let them pseudo-emag machinery into doing hilarious antics (Fill a computer display with "poo" until repaired! make Beepsky talk like a stereotypical gruff cop! Make the Amusing Duck start meowing!) and any other number of humorous shenanigans. Why start an uprising of murderous killbots when you can recreate the grey tide in robot form?

Engineering
Pros: Can interface with canisters and electrical wiring. Useful in repairing broken APCs and electrical repairs/upgrades in general.
Cons: Can't do much else. If there aren't any electrical problems to repair, there isn't very much for it to do.
Verdict: Very useful in some situations, but those situations don't happen very often, frequently leaving these cyborgs with little to do but make wire art.
Solution: Since merging with Construction is implausible, we could expand upon the mechanics functionality and give Engineering borgs a built-in ruckingeur kit and reverse-engineering fabricator, letting them accept materials and spit out items on the fly as desired. Got a blob problem but mechanics is fucked? Let the engieborg produce guns en mass to combat it! Comitting traitorous deeds? Subvert an engieborg to serve as your personal, mobile weapons rack. If this is a bit too much, maybe restrict the fabricator to distinctly non-dangerous items. This lets the engieborg retain its previous functionalities while serving a worthwhile purpose when there isn't anything to repair.

Janitor
Pros: Always slip-proof all of the time, all the floor-wetting fun of the janitor in robot form.
Cons: Some of the fun tools available to janitors (mousetraps, cleaner grenades, floor buffer) are absent, you actually have to listen when people tell you to stop wetting the floors (unless you're rogue/emagged)
Verdict: A stunted janitor with fewer unique gear and the requirement to actually do your job and clean shit when people ask you to clean shit lest people start shouting Law 2 at you. Without the ability to buff floors, toss cleaner grenades at people, or steal people's shoes and set mousetraps, these borgs quickly become all the tedium of the Janitor with only a portion of the fun.
Solution: For one, give the janitorborgs more gizmos and gadgets. The inability to pick up and drop things makes this rather difficult, but a few simple additions would make them more efficient and entertaining cyborgs to play as. A built-in mop bucket would be a godsend, since pulling the mop bucket around tends to be a crapshoot. Increasing the capacity of the water-holding containers would reduce the number of times you need to run back to a water tank. The trash compactor functionality as mentioned earlier would be really cool, letting the cyborg serve as a walking disposals chute. (Though, of course, you can't put people in it.) Many other ideas are possible, and other people could probably come up with more.

Construction
Pros: Infinite resources for (de)construction of all the things you need; of particular note is the infinite RCD. Gives you plenty of things to do in the event that there somehow isn't a hull breach. Lets you make some kickass wireart. Deconstructing the station as a rogue cyborg is horrifyingly effective.
Cons: Not much you can do aside from making (and breaking) stuff, still somewhat dependent on humans for larger-scale construction projects.
Verdict: Easily one of the best cyborg modules...to the point that people rarely pick anything else.
Solution: A minor nerf of the fact that the construction borg has infinite resources would probably help balance it out with the other modules. Giving the RCD an independent charge meter that has to be recharged at a docking station, possibly do the same with the floor tiles and other construction supplies. As was mentioned at some point before, giving the construction borgs the ability to plan constructions using the ABC-U or even giving them the planning tools usually found in construction mode would be cool.

Hydroponics
Pros: Immediate access to weed, chainsaws for chopping plants/faces
Cons: Inability to smoke weed, can't load plants into the splicers
Verdict: Without the ability to properly use the splicing machines, these cyborgs are restricted to the basemost botany tools. Not very fun. Furthermore, the cyborgs can't do very much with the plants they grow; they can't smoke weed, they can't throw melons.
Solution: At the very least, give them a built-in plant splicer or some other way to splice plants. Maybe give these cyborgs built-in terrariums for on-the-go weed-growing. I'm still an advocate for the creation of the Catering borg, myself.

Mining
Pros: Starts with some fairly nice mining gear from the start, doesn't need to breathe.
Cons: Doesn't start with mesons, can't upgrade their gear and consequentially cannot mine any ores with a hardness rarting of 4, can't do anything with the ores they mine, rendered completely redundant by the presence of a human miner.
Verdict: I have never seen this used. At all. Any half-competent miner can do its job leagues better than it can, and it has absolutely no edge above human miners whatsoever.
Solution: Honestly, just retool it entirely or scrap it. I can't see anything that a miner cyborg would be capable of doing that a crew member can't already do.

Medical
Pros: Nigh-infinite healing supplies, able to reply to emergency situations efficiently, pretty much a walking ambulance. Scalpel is very good for stabbing humans as a rogue.
Cons: No saline-glucose for shock treatments, and lacks some of the more esoteric medical treatments.
Verdict: The other module that is by far one of the best due to its expansive functionality that, in essence, makes it a medbay on wheels. It has no special tools, but it effectively combines the tools of the normal medic.
Solution: Again, nerf the infinite patches. As a medborg, you can pretty much cover someone in patches in no time at all. Either decrease the extent to which the patches heal you or make them work on a charge.

Chemistry
Pros: Can fill people with all sorts of nasty chemicals. Second only to the Construction borg in terms of potential for danger. Immune to accidentally poisoning itself.
Cons: If a chemborg isn't rogue, there's very little good it can do due to its inability to harm humans. Furthermore, without the hands to pick up external resources and put them into beakers, it can't even access the full repertoire of chemistry.
Verdict: Very scary if an AI subversion has occurred, but otherwise, they are extremely limited in what they can do, and even more limited in purpose. Chemistry is inherently dangerous by its very nature, and that doesn't parse very well with a job that isn't typically allowed to impose danger.
Solution: Give it more things to do, mainly. More research functionality would be great, but aside from that, I'm kind of struggling to figure out what to do with it.

Brobot
Pros: Sick beats.
Cons: An inherently gimmicky module, has very little practical application.
Verdict: Useless and gimmicky, but that's the whole point. Doesn't require very much change, and it's only picked by people who hvve forsaken productivity anyways.
Solution: No changes are required, really.
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#32
my opinion is.
Merge Chem module and Medical Module
Merge Construction Module and Engineering Module
Merge Brobot and standard modules.
Axe hydroponics and mining modules.

this gives borgs three strong choices. you can be an engineering powerhouse. a savior to all humans with extra ability to kill them when rogue. or you can be a slightly better Brobot.
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#33
Sundance Wrote:But barring all those reasons marq, the brainbot is a good idea because it's fun.

Well yes, it kinda depended, considering being unable to interact would be unfun as heck (ask any other server about pAI)

Dr_Bee Wrote:Merge Chem module and Medical Module
Merge Construction Module and Engineering Module

Gee thanks for reading my prior comments.

I'll give the effortpost a read-and-comment tomorrow Bane.
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#34
Marquesas Wrote:Gee thanks for reading my prior comments.

Doh! didnt realize there had been more than just Banes post since I last read this thread.

anyway I stand by my opinion for the Brobot and Standard module at least. would give it a more staff assistant feel to the whole thing.
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#35
Quote:Well yes, it kinda depended, considering being unable to interact would be unfun as heck (ask any other server about pAI)
That would be for the brainvat alone.
A brainvat is literally just a vat that you could shove a brain in while you make a borg body. That's why I suggested the roboticist start with 2-3 already, and he could shove brains in while he makes borg bodies, or he could shove a braindead brain in (which would flash red) and if the player ever decides to come back, it will flash green (along with the player screaming).
There's also situations where, for example someone was borged successfully (the borg would have the name Pi/Rho/etc) but unresponsive, more than likely because the player is doing something else while running SS13 in the background. The roboticist could take out the brain and shove it in a vat, and when the player returns it can yell in its little station bounced radio.

From there, he can be asked to be borged or requested to have an arm and wheel attached to him, or perhaps attached to a critter.

A brainbot is a brainvat with wheels and arms. That's where the fun begins. rainbow
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#36
I'd say keep chem/medical and construction/engineering borgs separate.

Chemborgs are surprisingly versatile; all-access lets them gather some ingredients that human chemists have a tough time reaching, and their built-in mini-ChemMasters are way too underestimated. The only reason they were overshadowed by mediborgs was the editable infinite patches, and they're a pretty even choice now that mediborgs can't customize their patches. Chemborg doesn't really need any upgrades right now, it just needs people to give it a chance.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of the engyborg. It simply hasn't kept up with the evolution of the engineering department jobs. Over the last year, engineering has shifted from power providers to construction monkeys, and mechanics has shifted from making backup cloners and fooling with wires to packet hacking and setting up complex logic-driven death machines. None of those changes were carried over to engyborgs, so they've simply failed to benefit from new features and rotted from neglect as their old features became largely obsolete. So update their features! Give them a mini-MechComp dispenser (maybe minus some of the most obviously dangerous components like gravitons) and maybe some gizmo that makes hacking/learning hacking easier. Maybe being able to tap a wire and see the last packet(s) that traveled through it?

Hydroponics, on the other hand, just plain needs to get something new. It can't even use any of the cool botany stuff, making it virtually useless.

I'm down with merging brobot and standard, they're both kinda boring.
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#37
Sundance Wrote:As the person who made up the brain bot/vat idea, there is a ton of reasons why you should implement it, it was the reason why the thread was so popular.

Quote:Pro's:
>You are immune to almost all forms of damage. No suffocating or dying in a fire, or getting shocked by the AI. You are, a brain in a vat, after all.
>You can open doors that the ID has swiped to you.
>You are not bound to asimovs laws. You are not a cyborg, just a human brain in a vat with little wheels.
>You can't be disarmed. Anything you pick up with your one arm is now practically glued to you.
>You can be easily put back together if you are destroyed.
Con's
>You are extremely vulnerable. A few hits with a crowbar or shot with a projectile and the glass is cracked and the brain is ejected and you are dead.
>You have no storage. You can however, pick up/drop/throw items.
>You can't pull or grab aggressively/choke. Your little robotic arm just ain't strong enough. You can however grab passively and drag someone slowly.
>You can be taken hostage very easily. Someone can just stun you, remove your arm and leg with a wrench and then just pick you up.

That is for the brainborg, i.e: Attaching wheel and arms to it to a brainvat. The brainvat on it's own serves another purpose
Quote:Slap a brain in it to see if it's owner is braindead or not.. Laugh as the brain audibly expresses their disgust! Slap several brains in several brainvats to keep yourself company while you work.. Laugh as the brains audibly tell you to hurry up with their cyborg body!
You can also pick up brainvats and walk around with them. Similar to PAI's in other servers, but more bulky and insulting.

And that's not including the concept of wrenching brainvats onto critters, daeren stated that it's quite possible given the new wraith coding.

But barring all those reasons marq, the brainbot is a good idea because it's fun.


Why would you EVER want to be a fucking a brain on wheels unless your some traitor with a cylume saber? So what if you can't be disarmed, not like there a reason for you to be disarmed if your not a traitor and that isn't including that face that anyone can fuck with you with just a wrench

All your pro are only useful if your a traitor and even then the useablity is super limited.
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#38
It's meant for bare-bones revival. It requires literally just a vat case and glass, and hey presto you're revived. It's super quick, but at a cost. Think of that scene in Futurama where Fry died and Dr. Zoidberg removed his head to keep him alive (in turn resulting him grafting it to Amy)

If I had a choice, between being a cyborg or being a brainvat with a hat on scurrying around with wheels then i'd choose the latter.
It's meant for an alternative for cyborg, as you're not bound to asimov's laws.
It's not meant to be a functional replacement to cyborg, but as an extra addition.
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#39
Just as an addendum so what i'm saying actually makes sense:

Let's say you are the Captain Leeroy Jenkins and you get horribly murdered and shoved in a crate to rot.

When you are borged, you lose your identity and your free will. You are no longer the captain. You are the metal servant. You are Rho-18, or Beta-42, etc.

However, if you were put in a brainvat, you retain your identity as "Leeroy Jenkins Brain" and you have your free will, AND you have the ability to wear your captains hat. You are not bound to laws and you are, although a little less, the captain.
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#40
Personally, I think it would be fun to be a brainbot. The idea of being like the little bots that run around the station sounds amusing to me.
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#41
Sundance Wrote:Just as an addendum so what i'm saying actually makes sense:

Let's say you are the Captain Leeroy Jenkins and you get horribly murdered and shoved in a crate to rot.

When you are borged, you lose your identity and your free will. You are no longer the captain. You are the metal servant. You are Rho-18, or Beta-42, etc.

However, if you were put in a brainvat, you retain your identity as "Leeroy Jenkins Brain" and you have your free will, AND you have the ability to wear your captains hat. You are not bound to laws and you are, although a little less, the captain.

I would easly pick the borg in that situation, Borgs while limited in their laws will have greater flexablity then a brain in a jar who has a hat on (Why would ANYONE listen the useless brain when there is a hop next in line) not to mention the fact that i am limited to ONE item and have my round easly ruined by some asshole who wrenches me.


In matter of fact,A borg can wear the captains hat AND his outfit so wearing a hat isn't even part of the equation!
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#42
Also you would be able attach your brainvat to Jones and then rule over the station as your pet cat. You just try telling me that that isn't just a bit amusing.
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#43
Quote:Why would ANYONE listen the useless brain when there is a hop next in line
If the brain is that of the captain.. The AI.. security.. Wait, people actually listen to the HoP?

My point about the hat was that while a cyborg can wear the captain's hat, you're still not the captain. Nobody, and I mean nobody, gives any heed to what cyborgs say unless you are someone trying to gather data, as cyborgs are ranked below humans.. below staff assistants even. You may wear the captains clothing, but you're just a machine playing dress-em-up.
If you are a staff assistant with nothing to lose, then hell yes, borging would be a far superior option as you've got so many options that you once did not.
But if you're ranked Head, or security, or maybe even a traitor, then I could see someone picking the brainbot as it gives you identity and free will. It also makes robotics a hell-of-alot more colorful in their reviving techniques. Don't forget about the possibility to be turned into a bee.

Your point stands though. There are some balancing issues but not much. Like lets say you want to shake someone, but you're holding a gun. You'd end up shooting them. There should be one slot for holding a medium sized item.
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#44
pizzatiger Wrote:Why would you EVER want to be a fucking a brain on wheels unless your some traitor with a cylume saber? So what if you can't be disarmed, not like there a reason for you to be disarmed if your not a traitor and that isn't including that face that anyone can fuck with you with just a wrench

All your pro are only useful if your a traitor and even then the useablity is super limited.

Go away. You're about as constructive as Russia in Ukraine.
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#45
Couple of thoughts on the new backpack-style borg tool interface:

Equipping anything and storing it sends it to the bottom of the list. For modules like medborgs, which often have to juggle several dozen tools to keep a person alive, this means a constant and ever-shifting inventory. I think it'd be best if everything just had a fixed place so inventory management is easier.

Clicking on page up and down to scroll the list is naturally a little slower than scrolling, although I'm not sure what else I would suggest. Maybe a rectangular grid across the screen that shows every item, perhaps?

Finally just a minor thing, to equip a thing from the list you have to click on the object itself, but when trying to use an equipped object, you actually have to click the square just outside the object to have it selected.
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