A new "Classic-RP" server variant

[Kotlol]

I'll be honest and pipe on both fronts again.

1: Classic should remain classic.
Yes, this is fine, we can have the one where people play only to win and survive. I have nothing against this mindset.
I just am against it as "THE ONLY MINDSET" and to go to RP if I don't want it.
While I agree with this sentiment.. it's also mega flawed cause.. this is just going: "I want gamify the system as much and see how I do."
And if I don't want it.. "Welp go to RP"

But RP doesn't have all content classic has. I want to fight a blob but still interact with players.
I want to see a flockmind who appears to roleplay being passive 1st , exploring and when they get attacked, war breaks out.
I want to see these kinda stuff.. without waiting for an admin to pick the RIGHT gang for it on RP servers.

So it basically is: "Well if you want these antags too bad, wait for an admeme." or "Deal with the more chaotic and no rping going on."

And before you say: "But antag x-y-z do not work for RP that's why they are turned off."
Yea but I don't want full on RP as well.
I just want an inbetween server that allows classic's "no need to escalate rule." but also goes with: "Just don't be instant about it."

Maybe a classic server with lower spawn rates and higher diversity with a rule in place of: "No killing before the 10 minute mark"
Something that allows players to interact with the antags and such.
And even Revs and Nukies are two of the most "ham" going antags.
But even those I see RP methodes.

The least RPable antag in my opinion is the blob, cause it has no real way of communicating. Even flock can communicate in some way , shape or form.

So while I think "Classic should stay classic." I just prepose we make a "Classic lite"
A server that is inbetween full on classic mayhem, but avoids the slowness of RP but has some of the benefits.

[Lefinch]

This is also just me, but I personally despise the idea that the sole reason people would join RP is because they don't want to have to deal with classic's purge day.
Why are we making or encouraging a situation where someone who doesn't have an RP-enjoying bone in their body (and I'd argue that's fine, it's not everyone's schtick) goes to RP, and entirely anecdotally, becomes a completely silent or monosyllabic player who barely interacts with the round. Some people come and love it, but there's going to be and again, entirely anecdotally there is right now a significant bump of people on 3 there not because they have the slightest inclination or interest in any form of RP, but because there's two types of soda at the machine and they can't drink Classic so RP it is. 

To extend the awkward metaphor, maybe offer Dr. Classic alongside Classic Max and RPepsi.

[mralexs]

I feel like if sec had less of the stigma of "players who's only job is to fight the antags and jail griefers" and actually got called for and actually showing up to handle minor stuff a lot of the powergaming issues could be solved. Also I know a lot of players don't think to ahlep powergaming and griefing as well as due to the game's culture it's kind of expected for staffies to break in to steal insuls and belts.

[Azurnite]

I think I see a lot of confusion on what kind of interactions are needed between antags and their potential victims. Many antags on Classic have an appearance alone that gives you the whole, "Oh! That's the bad guy!" This includes seeing a red and black clad Syndicate Agent/Nukie, a transformed werewolf, a wizard, shambling abomination, blob, flock, etc. In these cases, you know what is coming. The surprise from these particular antags can be just the sudden appearance of the blatantly obvious evil entity. What you do from that point onward is up to you. 

I use to play medical doctor on Classic quite a bit, but I just got tired of wordlessly being murdered by none of the aforementioned antags. It genuinely made me paranoid about being near anyone which was meta and not fun to the point I just stopped playing Classic. While I don't need someone to escalate and say, "I'm going to kill you." on Classic specifically, I would like some interaction at the very least. It could just be, "Hey you got a fly on your back, let me get it off you." or "You're doing a great job, here's your reward." then proceed to pullout the weapon and murder me, sting me as a ling, etc. You'd still have the element of surprise like many antags want to have and I may very well likely get a laugh out of it and it makes dying enjoyable.

Another problem I've had is when John Staffy has already stolen all of medbay's first aid kits and hacked every vendor in medbay by minute 5, all without saying a single word. Never mind whether they're an antag or not in this case. If I am wanting to be a medical doctor, someone like John Staffy here defeats the purpose of my role if they just silently steal everything from my department. All I would want at the least in this case is just a simple, single sentence interaction: "Can I have X-Y-Z?"

[BatElite]

What do you folks reckon is going to happen if there's another server running? Goon2 generally didn't get into the double digit population, and cultivated a playerbase toxic enough that the admin team decided it was not worth maintaining. Goon4 gets similar numbers (until recently, I'm assuming that nightshade is influencing that) even when 3 is way full. Leaving aside the specifics of what a "Classic-RP" should look like, there's no real reason to believe that the playerbase will divide itself between the two classic variants to a satisfactory degree.

Anyway I'm in favour of Zamu's rule proposals and I can't really wait for it to get instated. I've been discussing powegaming with folks a bit lately, and I've been heading towards the conclusion that it's purely an attitude problem. If playing this game is improv comedy (and sometimes drama), then a powergamer is the guy who refuses to "yes, and" anything that doesn't suit his ego.

Ideally an anti-powergaming or bare-minimum-RP rule would also entail a moderation effort to get everyone to chill a little bit. Not a lot, but just a tad. I find security to be quite execution-happy and antags to leave little breathing room for silliness. Those two reinforce each other, of course, but they're also behaviours that aren't directly being targeted by either rule. Or at least that's my interpretation. Would love to hear what Zamu thinks of that.

[Flaborized]

What do you folks reckon is going to happen if there's another server running? Goon2 generally didn't get into the double digit population, and cultivated a playerbase toxic enough that the admin team decided it was not worth maintaining. Goon4 gets similar numbers (until recently, I'm assuming that nightshade is influencing that) even when 3 is way full. Leaving aside the specifics of what a "Classic-RP" should look like, there's no real reason to believe that the playerbase will divide itself between the two classic variants to a satisfactory degree.

This is IMO very correct and is the main reason I don't think we'd specifically open up an "in-between-y" server. A server that's in-between the two I don't think would really appeal to either group. I agree that improving classic in the ways zamu brought up are basically The Way To Go and probably what the server needs atm. Even if we already tell people off for being very unfun or powergaming outright writing it out would let people know the expectations going in and make people feel more empowered to ahelp when they see it being an issue.

[Glamurio]

This is IMO very correct and is the main reason I don't think we'd specifically open up an "in-between-y" server. A server that's in-between the two I don't think would really appeal to either group. I agree that improving classic in the ways zamu brought up are basically The Way To Go and probably what the server needs atm. Even if we already tell people off for being very unfun or powergaming outright writing it out would let people know the expectations going in and make people feel more empowered to ahelp when they see it being an issue.

Personally, I don't care if we get a new "Classic-RP" server or if Classic just becomes a little less unsavory, the end result would be the same. It's just whenever I spoke about "Classic being Classic" a lot of people liked that sort of "powergame-y" aspect of it. But perhaps those people are just part of the problem and instating a rule that forbids it makes the whole place more palatable for everyone.

It still doesn't quite solve my personal issue, I do like a bare minimum of immersion and Classic communication is very "internet brainrot" oriented from my experience, and it just doesn't hit the same when someone gets murdered and the passerbys say something along the lines of "um, based?" or "syndie moment" and walk on rather than, you know, having an actual reaction. But nevertheless, this is still a step in the right direction.

[cheekybrdy]

As a long time classic player, I'd love to see a second classic server with rulings related to roundflow. Escalation can be awkward, but from what I've seen most classic migrants usually end up moving due to validhunting murderboning and powergaming. I really disagree on that NRP means that you are taking the game seriously, although its the most common pattern. Just means the wall of a character isn't really there. Nightshade's rulings are nice but I'd really hate the only good NRP place on ss13 to go poof, I'd really perfer another server myself. I feel like these two concepts could probably be mixed into something, just because this game can be seen in a strictly "RP-game" mindset doesn't really mean it can't just be the silly atmos sim it started off as, I'd really dislike it if all of goon was put into this mindset. Feels really reductive to only look at the game from that mindset.

[Snowy :D]

How exactly are antags expected to act? Do they need to talk to people before they kill them? Personally, I don’t think that’s necessary to be a fun antag. Antags should be encouraged to mess around with their tools instead of exclusively going for the best items and killing everyone that they see.

---

It still doesn't quite solve my personal issue, I do like a bare minimum of immersion and Classic communication is very "internet brainrot" oriented from my experience, and it just doesn't hit the same when someone gets murdered and the passerbys say something along the lines of "um, based?" or "syndie moment" and walk on rather than, you know, having an actual reaction. But nevertheless, this is still a step in the right direction.

Ugh, I hate that too.

[Cal]

We're considering fixes for that, but that's also besides the point of the thread.

[babywrangler85]

I don't think we need a new server we just need to do what Zamu said with classic, the culture surrounding powergaming and the concept of RP on there is really bizarre and unfun

[Lord_earthfire]

If it's in the game, you can abuse it, if you think it's bad then PR a nerf or removal seems to be the going attitude these days.  I can see the logic there, even if I don't agree with it, but it makes responding to obnoxious playstyles much more reactive.

This development is specifically one i struggle with a lot. When i first left classic, i left it with fond memories. But when i started to contribute to the codebase, that fondness quickly vsnished.

You cannot make fun/whacky/overtuned features for a sandbox game when people play it like a competative moba game.

Even worse, it caters to these playstyles. If people realize "hey, i can abuse a feature when i want it to change" they will proceed to do so, ignoring the enjoyment if others.

We got a PR about a prefab up with some loot worth the exploration. And while so me loot can be adjusted to be less for free, people jump onto it with "yeah, that will get abused". I'm personally far beyond sick of this attitude.

While i still enjoy jumping on classic from time to time, just this thought and seeing some sec/antags behave quickly makes me jump back to RP.

I wouldn't quite say classic makes it less enjoyable for me to contribute, but i can definetly say it's producing a heck lot of headache at times.

[Solwra]

If I'm reading the main post correctly, this is mainly pertaining to the fact that RP does not have certain features like nukies and blobs enabled, (which I don't have any take on since I don't play on RP) but it also mixes in that they want a server which has those enabled but still allow roleplay. Is this a general consensus amongst people who play RP that they want those things enabled? Why not test enable those features and see how players like it rather than immediately jumping the ship to alter classic to accommodate RP playstyle.

[TDHooligan]

a lot of the people i know who play 1 are as detached from goonstation as you can be. idk how easy it will be to get their responses.

they hop on for our mechanics, do something interesting/die and hop off. a lot of them play purely for the fact there is no ruling on how they play (else they would just play RP)

adding RP-style rules to 1, even if they're 'RP-lite', seems to undermine the only reason a lot of folk actually play 1. those that can be bothered with any kind of RP rules just jump on RP because it's in a healthier state.

[Decarcassor]

I mean there are two very clear opinions going on in here. Thoses who want to keep Goon1 without RP rules and thoses who wish for a server with classic antags and light RP rules. And clearly Heisenbee cannot be both.