Goonhub
10-10-2022, 07:15 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 07:17 AM by Glamurio. Edited 1 time in total.)
I've openly discussed my opinion in various channels before, such as Discord or other threads pertaining to partial issues of this, but I'd to take another stab at a proper, universal discussion about the current state of monkeys, where people would want them to be, which parts of it should be changed or otherwise amended, and how we can find a solution that will make everyone happy (spoiler, that solution doesn't exist).
For the sake of clarity, let me list a couple (hopefully) objective statements about monkeys, as well as their implications:
- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
- - This makes monkeys harder to hit / better at combat scenarios
- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
- - This makes monkeys more mobile and harder to trap
- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
- - This makes monkeys reliant on a translator
- Translators occupy the mask slot
- - This makes monkeys unable to both speak and use internals
- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
- - This requires people to use genetics to become monkeys (or be Test Subject)
Now, whether or not you like any of this, these are the facts about monkeys. What I'd like to do is break down each of these components, why they are in the game, and answer the simple question "Should they remain in the game?". There are a lot of historic or "cultural" reasons as to why some of these exist, and I believe it's important to review each of them critically, rather than to simply rely on the basis of "Why change it?". With yet another thread about monkeys, it should become increasingly clear that there's a lot of mixed opinions on the subject, and perhaps this even has to do with RP and non-RP players, but that's exactly what this thread aims to address. With all that out of the way, let's get started.
- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
I don't think anybody can contest that subject, it's evident from the fact that the sprite is smaller and harder to click on. It's undoubtedly an advantage, and has often been cited as one of the major reasons as to why playable monkeys should be limited to some degree. My argument here is, just how much stronger is this advantage? This most certainly seems to be largely an issue when interacting physically with the target, as ranged weapons and projectiles don't care about sprite sizes. What's interesting to me also, is that this would seem to largely affect a non-RP playerbase. In RP it's practically standard that you are both standing face-to-face before initiating any sort of hostile interaction, giving each player ample time to click on the other one to start any sort of action because we typically escalate conflict.
- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
This is probably the other large reason why monkeys are "supposed to have downsides". Again, not even arguing that this is beneficial, it's straight-up an improvement over regular humans. Though what I will say, is that there's definitely parameters to tweak here. If the issue is that monkeys are able to jump over furniture, perhaps we can simply increase the cooldown of said action, or even add that ability to humans in general, but have monkeys be able to do it faster. Generally, I'd argue this is the strongest bonus monkeys gain access to. As for the mail chute access, this seems to be rarely at play. In most situations, antags have the ability to use the regular disposal system anyway, so it's not an obscene increase in power, but for all that I care this is something that need not necessarily exist if it's bothersome to some.
- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
A historic part of SS13 history, and something I wouldn't dare to change, in fact I'd argue that this is a huge win in terms of flavor. It obviously means that monkeys need some form of translator to be able to communicate, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. If anything, the discussion about the point should largely take place around said translator, how exclusive / restrictive it should be, and if there should be any alternative methods of achieving the same result. Additionally, I believe there's room to argue about mutations to allow monkeys to speak human. There's a mutation called "Monkey Speak" that does exactly this for humans (though it's needlessly rare to begin with) and I see little to no reason to not have an equivalent mutation for "Human Speak", especially since this would not be something you'd have at round start.
- Translators occupy the mask slot
This seems to be something that has a lot of people up in arms. Translators prevent usage of any other mask item, including internals, justified at large by the fact that "they are too strong otherwise". In term of flavor, I don't think translators taking up a mask slot is bad, what I do think is problematic is that it's the only way to have your monkey be able to communicate and severely limits self-expression by doing so. Again, this is largely an RP problem in my opinion, where fashion is a lot more prevalent, and not being able to customize your character's face is a definite loss in that aspect. I've mentioned before alternative solutions, of having translators be combinable with masks, sort of like assemblies, or being able to wear translators in your pocket and still gaining the benefit while arguably being "nerfed" by sacrificing a pocket slot.
- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
This is the other fact that's often cited as "necessary" to make monkeys less common because they are so strong, which may very well have been true at some point, but no longer holds any water. Any person is able to easily pick up the monkey race from genetics at no charge, in terms of balancing this isn't an issue. Once more however, in an RP perspective (as well as QoL), this is a huge oddity. If someone roleplays a monkey, they have to waddle over to the gene booth, hoping nobody sees them, so they can "become a monkey" and pretend they've always been one. It's a weird disconnect that genuinely does not need to be there, because as I mentioned before, it's not for lack of attainability. I believe monkeys should be a mutant race that you're able to select on round start, same as any other. You can even make it cost more than +1 if that's the issue, and spawn them with a translator (like you do with Test Subject).
---
Now, the reason I broach this subject is because I'd personally really like to make some pull requests addressing these issues, but I felt like there's little to no reason doing so if there's not at least some form of consensus of what people think. So, let me hear it. I'm sorry for making some of you repeat yourselves, as I know this is a topic that's often-enough discussed on the forums, but it usually seems to only pertain to some aspects of monkeys, rather than all of it cohesively in one place. Any and all opinions are welcome, and I genuinely hope to convince some of you that some of these changes are a long-time coming, even if we have to make them RP-only.
For the sake of clarity, let me list a couple (hopefully) objective statements about monkeys, as well as their implications:
- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
- - This makes monkeys harder to hit / better at combat scenarios
- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
- - This makes monkeys more mobile and harder to trap
- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
- - This makes monkeys reliant on a translator
- Translators occupy the mask slot
- - This makes monkeys unable to both speak and use internals
- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
- - This requires people to use genetics to become monkeys (or be Test Subject)
Now, whether or not you like any of this, these are the facts about monkeys. What I'd like to do is break down each of these components, why they are in the game, and answer the simple question "Should they remain in the game?". There are a lot of historic or "cultural" reasons as to why some of these exist, and I believe it's important to review each of them critically, rather than to simply rely on the basis of "Why change it?". With yet another thread about monkeys, it should become increasingly clear that there's a lot of mixed opinions on the subject, and perhaps this even has to do with RP and non-RP players, but that's exactly what this thread aims to address. With all that out of the way, let's get started.
- Monkeys have a smaller hitbox
I don't think anybody can contest that subject, it's evident from the fact that the sprite is smaller and harder to click on. It's undoubtedly an advantage, and has often been cited as one of the major reasons as to why playable monkeys should be limited to some degree. My argument here is, just how much stronger is this advantage? This most certainly seems to be largely an issue when interacting physically with the target, as ranged weapons and projectiles don't care about sprite sizes. What's interesting to me also, is that this would seem to largely affect a non-RP playerbase. In RP it's practically standard that you are both standing face-to-face before initiating any sort of hostile interaction, giving each player ample time to click on the other one to start any sort of action because we typically escalate conflict.
- Monkeys can vault over objects / Monkeys can access otherwise inaccessible mail chutes
This is probably the other large reason why monkeys are "supposed to have downsides". Again, not even arguing that this is beneficial, it's straight-up an improvement over regular humans. Though what I will say, is that there's definitely parameters to tweak here. If the issue is that monkeys are able to jump over furniture, perhaps we can simply increase the cooldown of said action, or even add that ability to humans in general, but have monkeys be able to do it faster. Generally, I'd argue this is the strongest bonus monkeys gain access to. As for the mail chute access, this seems to be rarely at play. In most situations, antags have the ability to use the regular disposal system anyway, so it's not an obscene increase in power, but for all that I care this is something that need not necessarily exist if it's bothersome to some.
- Monkeys cannot speak "English", they speak "Monkey"
A historic part of SS13 history, and something I wouldn't dare to change, in fact I'd argue that this is a huge win in terms of flavor. It obviously means that monkeys need some form of translator to be able to communicate, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. If anything, the discussion about the point should largely take place around said translator, how exclusive / restrictive it should be, and if there should be any alternative methods of achieving the same result. Additionally, I believe there's room to argue about mutations to allow monkeys to speak human. There's a mutation called "Monkey Speak" that does exactly this for humans (though it's needlessly rare to begin with) and I see little to no reason to not have an equivalent mutation for "Human Speak", especially since this would not be something you'd have at round start.
- Translators occupy the mask slot
This seems to be something that has a lot of people up in arms. Translators prevent usage of any other mask item, including internals, justified at large by the fact that "they are too strong otherwise". In term of flavor, I don't think translators taking up a mask slot is bad, what I do think is problematic is that it's the only way to have your monkey be able to communicate and severely limits self-expression by doing so. Again, this is largely an RP problem in my opinion, where fashion is a lot more prevalent, and not being able to customize your character's face is a definite loss in that aspect. I've mentioned before alternative solutions, of having translators be combinable with masks, sort of like assemblies, or being able to wear translators in your pocket and still gaining the benefit while arguably being "nerfed" by sacrificing a pocket slot.
- Monkeys are not a starting mutant race
This is the other fact that's often cited as "necessary" to make monkeys less common because they are so strong, which may very well have been true at some point, but no longer holds any water. Any person is able to easily pick up the monkey race from genetics at no charge, in terms of balancing this isn't an issue. Once more however, in an RP perspective (as well as QoL), this is a huge oddity. If someone roleplays a monkey, they have to waddle over to the gene booth, hoping nobody sees them, so they can "become a monkey" and pretend they've always been one. It's a weird disconnect that genuinely does not need to be there, because as I mentioned before, it's not for lack of attainability. I believe monkeys should be a mutant race that you're able to select on round start, same as any other. You can even make it cost more than +1 if that's the issue, and spawn them with a translator (like you do with Test Subject).
---
Now, the reason I broach this subject is because I'd personally really like to make some pull requests addressing these issues, but I felt like there's little to no reason doing so if there's not at least some form of consensus of what people think. So, let me hear it. I'm sorry for making some of you repeat yourselves, as I know this is a topic that's often-enough discussed on the forums, but it usually seems to only pertain to some aspects of monkeys, rather than all of it cohesively in one place. Any and all opinions are welcome, and I genuinely hope to convince some of you that some of these changes are a long-time coming, even if we have to make them RP-only.
