[MERGED PR] Scaling pipe leakage

[Cheffie]

The problem is that with a pipeburn pressure will always increase. The pipes will burst and even IF you spend all shift fixing the pipes the burn will still die as the pipes will burst immediately after being fixed, making fixing the pipes in anyway completely impractial unless you have 5 people welding at all times.
The increase in gas expelled also makes the engine and surrounding areas more dangerous as more gas leaks out of the engine room. And due to the nature of a pipeburn, once the pipes start bursting there is no way to stop them from bursting, and pressure decrease will outpace growth making getting numbers higher than GW impractial. Another issue I have with the PR is that the more pipes an engine room has the harder it is to do a burn as exponetially more gas escapes.
In general it just makes burns harder to do and gives less incentive for engineers to even bother with a high level burn since it will die anyway, why bother? just throw plasma and char and go about your day.

[Jazzy Blues]

This pipeburn has several holes in it, which I circled, and when I first checked it out was at 25mw, rapidly climbed to a whopping 700mw and was still climbing last I checked.

Are they really broken? I don't see that this has caused an issue here.

EDIT: It took 39 holes in the hot loop and 10 in the cold loop for the engine to stop generating power.

Broken is the wrong word for it. The generator itself *works* that isn't really the issue, reaching 700 MW and a bit above should not be much of a problem, (altough it now takes more time and effort), but a bare minimum for a lot of things we want to achieve with the power needs 5000 MW and above which is more of a challenge. We did some experimentation and this is still feasible on Kondaru luckily but on Cog 1 it's a different story.

It's also important to keep the heat and pressure into consideration, even though that usually goes hand in hand with power it's still an individual factor which was affected by the merge. For example, we need around e9 + temperatures in the pipes to sufficiently heat plasma to make the more devastating bombs. 

Also, I want to just clarify, while a big problem with the merge is the fact that it makes some things impossible, what maybe should be considered the most is why this should remain merged. As far as I know I haven't heard anyone openly say that they enjoy this change at all while many others are very against it, even before it was merged I don't see a lot of positive opinions, at least not an obvious majority justifying the change. 

I really just feel like this doesn't make for a better experience in any way at all and don't see the point of it. We want change but it has to make the experience better for the majority of players that are affected, and so far it doesn't.

[According_tome]

It has been more than two weeks since I played as an engineer but I can say even then It was a problem to deal with pipe bursts. This pr adds realism to engineering however, engineers now need to spend more time to maintain the pipes if they want to do high temperature burns. Since this will take most of their time, they can't enjoy playing with teg as they did before.

[Piksqu]

If we are doing a pipe presure rework, can we at least do a PTL rework too?
Either we lower the PTL objective down to 10k-50k, or we multiply the value of energy by 4x to 6x.
Pipe burn was the only way to get to fill this objective, and now it is imposible on any other map than kondraku.

[Kotlol]

In my opinion we need to be able to upgrade the pipes to hold more pressure.
This would engineering more willing to take mining seriously... think all the bohrum does nothing anyway.
Now imagine we can use it for coating... coating each pipe with a device to upgrade them to hold more pressure.

[DioChasek]

In my opinion we need to be able to upgrade the pipes to hold more pressure.
This would engineering more willing to take mining seriously... think all the bohrum does nothing anyway.
Now imagine we can use it for coating... coating each pipe with a device to upgrade them to hold more pressure.

There is some credence to this idea. You can start your round on a low power get your resources to upgrade then go for broke on a hellburn the last half of your shift. You could also ignore it completely and suffer the consequences. 
However this also requires mining to
1. Actually do their job.  A department notorious for working until they hit a motherload asteroid to supply the station with cash for the round, and then messing about with mat science stuff.
2. Not die, related of course to number 1 but only the humble clown and janitor have higher unnoticed deaths.
3. Sometimes asteroids are just finicky and it takes way too long to bring in a bohrum asteroids because Rngesus hates you today.
4. How much material will be required to plate /replace pipes. And related to that is more importantly how much time will you have to pull it off? You should be able to pull off similar engine performance on both a full classic and RP round. Yes you can get higher numbers on RP because of round length but a classic round should also at least be able to get their hell burn going instead of still be plating pipes which could be an issue.

I really do like the idea though anything to give mining more to do other than gold,starstone, and explosive ore hunting is probably a good thing.

[Kotlol]

In my opinion we need to be able to upgrade the pipes to hold more pressure.
This would engineering more willing to take mining seriously... think all the bohrum does nothing anyway.
Now imagine we can use it for coating... coating each pipe with a device to upgrade them to hold more pressure.

There is some credence to this idea. You can start your round on a low power get your resources to upgrade then go for broke on a hellburn the last half of your shift. You could also ignore it completely and suffer the consequences. 
However this also requires mining to
1. Actually do their job.  A department notorious for working until they hit a motherload asteroid to supply the station with cash for the round, and then messing about with mat science stuff.
2. Not die, related of course to number 1 but only the humble clown and janitor have higher unnoticed deaths.
3. Sometimes asteroids are just finicky and it takes way too long to bring in a bohrum asteroids because Rngesus hates you today.
4. How much material will be required to plate /replace pipes. And related to that is more importantly how much time will you have to pull it off? You should be able to pull off similar engine performance on both a full classic and RP round. Yes you can get higher numbers on RP because of round length but a classic round should also at least be able to get their hell burn going instead of still be plating pipes which could be an issue.

I really do like the idea though anything to give mining more to do other than gold,starstone, and explosive ore hunting is probably a good thing.

Well Mining also can get plasma stone and char for the engines, but most of it is ignored.. by simply adding platings to the pipes and the right metals (for example bohrum for heat, but something else for cold) you can get better pipes and give bohrum more use.. There are alot of Asteriods you can get that serve next to no purpose... give them a new purpose by doing things like that.
Sure mining doing their job is bad.. but the CE barely does anything with Mining.. this gives the CE a reason to go mining and say: I WANT TO HAVE MY EPIC HELLBURN!

[TrickyWolfer]

Reading newer comments, yeah, this update while not necessarily "destroy" the overall functionality, it's just really really hard to get high pressure in the pipes, combined with the fact that pipes are prefab and cannot be reconstructed. Idea wise, it's great, to add more realism and to add more reason why you should be very competent to do burns. But this update not only raised the learning curve to almost 90 degrees slope, everyone in the replies mentioned that there's no more free time to experiment about it more.

With this update too some maps are immediately eliminated if we were going to do normal hellburn. I tried it on Cog 1 before, should've clarified. With the huge map for piping, it's hard to run around keeping all pipes sealed shut, leaving us with smaller maps such as Kondaru or Cog 2. An update where we instead could tinker more about the overall setup (like piping and stuff) would be a better update to counter this issue. This could also tie in with taking other departments more seriously and actually very essential rather than just "one-man-burn" with farts and CE's RCD ammo.

Looking forward to recreate the double undefined. Hopefully the update instead creates more bogus but actually works setups. It would be hilarious. 

[Cheffie]

Actually only kondaru works now with the traditional method from my testing. and thats due to the fact it only has around 8 pipes which can burst on each loop. other maps with more pipes (especially cog 2) leak too much pressure as they have over 20 pipes to leak from.

[SenExus]

Honestly, I feel like this PR is far too detrimental to not be PRed. It basically removed one of the Engineer's most powerful abilities: making pipeburns, which has a domino effect, as some medals and other things can only be achieved via a pipe burn that is now, due to this PR, borderline impossible to achieve (Unless you're on Kondaru apparently). For instance, the medals "1.21 Jiggawatts" and "For Your Ohm Good" both need a tremendous amount of power to be pumped out to actually achieve, which is borderline impossible to do without a, now non-existant, pipe burn. Perhaps, as people have suggested, if there were a way to alloy/reinforce/create pipes that could handle higher pressures, that could provide as a way to allow for more interaction between miners and engineers to take place, as well as allow for pipe burns to retain their position

[Kotlol]

Just thought up another thing for "Other" ways of generating power then the combustion engine.

That's the Singularity Engine and Solar panels.
Why can't we upgrade solar panels too with certain materials?
Like I don't know...Sunflowers can be mutated into plated sunflowers that can be made into upgraded solar panels/new panels?
Or other materials that are barely used for this?

As for Singularity engine to upgrade that...I recommend Miraculium and Erebite, to increase radiation output from the emiters and absorbance? I don't know being silly here. I would love to see the upgrade of Erebite be great for the singularity output.. but at the same time... You now have explosive parts and if something goes wrong LORD SINGULO WILL FEED!

[DioChasek]

On the topic of sunflower mutations what if we make sunflowers that can provide an electric charge to the local smes grid based on potency. Botany ptl burns anyone?

[Kotlol]

On the topic of sunflower mutations what if we make sunflowers that can provide an electric charge to the local smes grid based on potency. Botany ptl burns anyone?

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

[DioChasek]

Really would be funny to see engineering and botany battling it out to see who can provide more power to the station. But anyway enough diversion.

[Decarcassor]

A small idea... but maybe also Potato mutation that can give power due to potency.
POTATO POWERED STATION GO!

Potato power cells are already a thing. Just plug wires into a potato for a large cell or a peeled potato for small ones. Potato cells have a very small capacity that scale of potency, but can't outclass regular power cells.
The real strenght of potatoes is that they are self charging like cells made of radioactive mats. And the recharge rate scale decently of endurance. So potato power already exist. You can replace every APC cell with a potato that will never run out of power as they recharge faster than what most department can drain.

But this has nothing to do with the TEG, so moving on.


I don't have much to contribute to the discussion, as I'm not really a big engineering main. On one hand I understand that pipeburns are a fun thing to do for experienced engineers from a gameplay perspective. But on the other hand from a simulation point of view, the idea of broken pipes usualy exposed to space still increasing in pressure toward infinity seemed a bit silly to me.
So now, engies wanting to pipeburns have to run around fixing pipes. Wich depending on wich map you are on can be a pain. This make more sense from a simulation pov, but add tediousness to the gameplay side.

Also bothering me is the very much unused burn chamber, and TEG electroplating mechanic. The burn chamber simply can't produce anything close to a pipeburn, and the plating bonus are really insignificant compared the the exponential increase in pipe burns.

Reinforcing/Plating pipes look like a sensible idea. But there could also be a type of TEG plating that could help with making pipeburns less bursty, as well certain circulators lubricants. Idealy using some neglected materials or chemicals that are not particularly hard to make or find, but just don't have much use right now.
I'm thinking weird stuff like viscerite alloy plating so the TEG become elastic and porous, taking some of the pipe stress upon itself. And why not dumping THC in the hot loop circulator to help it chill under all that pressure. Stuff like that.

I still have no idea what to make of the burn chamber, but maybe someone smarter than me could figure out a way to make it help pipeburns too ? Like creating an intentional pipe burst inside of it and recylcing the leaked gas somehow ?