make the HoS app easier/simpler/trial hos rounds

[aft2001]

Exactly. Just let people that seem like possibly good candidates try out the role. HoS isn't some god-role after all, you just get access to some neat toys and a sweet beret and that's about it. That and arguably more authority than the Captain in all but rank.

[KikiMofo]

Personally I think the whole trial HoS stuff is just another barrier in the way of people wanting to play HoS but if they can still just make a normal HoS App without the trial its fine with me.

[OMJ]

Good post. I've been complaining about a lot of the same stuff in discord for a while but haven't actually done anything about it. I've long hated the "brig layout" question. It was fine 5 or 6 years ago, but now has no use.

I like your idea of trial HoS, that sounds like it was fun. I agree with Flourish that reducing required word count as a result of a successful trial HoS app is probably not the way to go about it. Perhaps that is a section that can be added to the HoS app explicitly or it should just count as a recommendation. Probably the latter because adding a whole other "trial run" section that the applicant would have to organize with an admin or HoS before their application is another hurdle to jump through. And if the goal here is to make the HoS application less stressful, then I think that making it a faux-mandatory addition to the HoS application is counter to that goal.

But reducing mandatory word count over all is a good idea. I've said in the past that I thought that the "Reason for Application" section is rather pointless, and requiring 300 words for it is too many. That section really is only to gauge how motivated the applicant is because those sections all look exactly the same no matter who is writing them and there is never any useful information in them other than "Someone took the time to write this, they must be serious". A question like that has value in some situations, but I don't think that it does here.

I've had this sitting around on my computer in a notepad tab for a month or so since I saw Flourish write up some good new HoS application questions to replace the "brig layout" one:

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Usual Character Name:
BYOND Username:
Recommended by (if applicable):
Times Available:

Reason for Application (no word minimum):

Security Experience (300 word minimum):

//In your opinion, what are the flaws and benefits of the current security layout (brig, cells, security room etc):
Choose two or more:

- What advice would you give to other sec players?
- What was your favorite security moment? (Either playing as a sec officer or interacting with one)
- Describe an instance of when you or an HoS has had to remove a Captain from command.
- Describe any differences in your playstyle as part of a full security team or being the only security officer?

Fun questions (because it's important for the HoS to be fun. Choose one or more):
- Write a poem to convey your thoughts on security/NanoTrasen/space/bees/poo.
- What's a security/command gimmick that you've run or wanted to run?
- In your personal opinion, which current HoS is the most robust?


Previous Bans (While this will not affect your application lying about it will):

i'm just bumping this post because i like it a lot and want to bring it to the forefront again

[aft2001]

Again I'm bumping this post as well. I REALLY like kyle's application format, and while I think a trial system would work, it should probably just be EITHER a trial or application.

I'd like to see the admin teams' response to this, because I haven't seen much response to this.

Personally, I'd love to give HoS a shot. It seems to be a fun role to have access to when I wanna play Security and I'm down to make a well-organized security team, or just run trials, or whatever! I've already applied once, and was rejected due to not playing more often. Is HoS really that serious of a role? You get fancy toys, yeah, but even if you're a shitcunt and abuse your role, it can very easily be taken away by any remotely competent admin. Of course, John McPubs shouldn't have access to the HoS role, but it really shouldn't be a headache to be able to get this role. It is Goonstation after all.

[Wisecrack34]

I doubt I'd be able to get HoS in any of these reguards but from what I remember, it was a special occasion to see an actual HoS

[TDHooligan]

I'd been considering applying for a long time now but it is solely the volume of words holding me back. Respectfully, I really can't be bothered to write a huge essay for a section that I'm pretty sure is best filled with nothing other than waffling about the 'importance of security and why I'm a super respectful fun guy who is also robust I promise' as an effort barrier. I think people offering themselves up to be HoS should generally be people that play enough under one name to at least be known, as a HoS with a random unrecognisable name is pretty hard to respect.

I can't really think of many cases where someone puts their application and going to be recognised as experienced when their name shows up as HoS, but is somehow unknown to the people making the decision on if they're suited for the role in the first place.

[Technature]

To be fair, the large essay is mostly there to prevent people who aren't serious from applying.

Least that's what I remember reading at some point.

[KikiMofo]

To be fair, the large essay is mostly there to prevent people who aren't serious from applying.

Least that's what I remember reading at some point.

This is true. I've never had my mind changed from reading someones HoS app. It all depends on if I recognize the name and have played with them and know they are good at the game and not a shit sec. The word count is just there to make people think twice about if they really want to apply.

[Vengarr]

There's zero reason for HOS to be a whitelisted job. It's been suggested that this was done to prevent griefing. In practical terms, the Captain has all the round-ruining power of the HoS and the ability to easily open the armory crates if they know how to packet hack, and it's not whitelisted. I've also seen it suggested that a whitelist weeds out bad players and gives the crew "someone they can trust". This is laughable since I can think of at least two who are terrible at playing Security period, let alone Head of Security.

HoS on Goonstation is just a Secret Club, and a sadly small one at that.

If the skill quality is what matters, HoS and other Head positions should be time-locked like they are on other servers. If the player quality is what matters, just job ban shitty HoS players like we do other shitty players. If the job itself is somehow a magnet for shitters? Just remove it entirely. Given how few people actually play HoS, it's already 2/3rds of the way to removal. In any case, making people write an essay and submit it to the Maesters for approval is flat-out dumb.

[Technature]

Oh. Oh. I wanna take a look see at this.

This is laughable since I can think of at least two who are terrible at playing Security period, let alone Head of Security.

If an HoS is acting like an asshole and you think that it's just bad behavior, you should admin help it. Not only will it be brought to their attention, but they're also aware if an HoS is just being an asshole or if they're being forced into it (like a mindslave) and won't punish them for not breaking any rules.
If you're talking about robustness, that doesn't actually matter. The main thing is knowing when it's okay to resort to lethal tactics and being fair to people you are interacting with, including inmates, and of course most importantly not using security as an excuse to power trip all over the place. Being good at the game is nice, but unnecessary.

If the skill quality is what matters, HoS and other Head positions should be time-locked like they are on other servers.

There is nothing stopping someone from just logging on, waiting inside a pod in who knows where, and waiting out the time limit til they get what they want.

If the player quality is what matters, just job ban shitty HoS players like we do other shitty players.

This is possible with shitcurity members, as they tend to ruin one or two different round experiences and get called out on their shit really fast. The HoS on the other hand has access to really nasty shit and a potential army that probably won't question him when he says "tranq this prick and chuck him into space", making it difficult to know who's to blame til the damage has been done.

If the job itself is somehow a magnet for shitters? Just remove it entirely. Given how few people actually play HoS, it's already 2/3rds of the way to removal.

This case could be made for literally all but the absolute most basic of roles. Let's remove science because someone is griefing with explosions, let's remove QM cause someone is griefing with phasers, let's remove mining because someone is griefing with horrifying weapons and armor, let's remove engineering because this is like the tenth time the engine has caught fire and I'm starting to think it's on purpose.

If you don't want to write an essay, then don't apply for HoS. It's just to weed out people who don't want to seriously consider making the game more fun for everyone more or less, and it honestly seems like it's working.

[OMJ]

There's zero reason for HOS to be a whitelisted job. It's been suggested that this was done to prevent griefing. In practical terms, the Captain has all the round-ruining power of the HoS and the ability to easily open the armory crates if they know how to packet hack, and it's not whitelisted. I've also seen it suggested that a whitelist weeds out bad players and gives the crew "someone they can trust". This is laughable since I can think of at least two who are terrible at playing Security period, let alone Head of Security.

HoS on Goonstation is just a Secret Club, and a sadly small one at that.

If the skill quality is what matters, HoS and other Head positions should be time-locked like they are on other servers. If the player quality is what matters, just job ban shitty HoS players like we do other shitty players. If the job itself is somehow a magnet for shitters? Just remove it entirely. Given how few people actually play HoS, it's already 2/3rds of the way to removal. In any case, making people write an essay and submit it to the Maesters for approval is flat-out dumb.

i agree with this tbh. i think a like 15h security played requirement should be enough for HoS. but the essay’s not going away so may as well adapt.

Any move that boosts the amount of HoSes is the right one. They can always be jobbanned!

or as I’ve previously said open the beret up to all mentors

[UrsulaMejor]

The essay is more about "have you played enough security to actually have an opinion on it?"

Security is one of the most fluid and often contentious roles, and the HoS players have some pretty strong, and conflicting, opinions on how it should be played best.

I don't think we want a hard time limit; being bound to hard limits like that just isn't our culture. I think the "soft" requirements we have are more than good enough to deter players that are not experienced or serious enough while also not requiring you literally put in X hours into the job like this were a forklift certification or something

[OMJ]

The essay is more about "have you played enough security to actually have an opinion on it?"

Security is one of the most fluid and often contentious roles, and the HoS players have some pretty strong, and conflicting, opinions on how it should be played best.

I don't think we want a hard time limit; being bound to hard limits like that just isn't our culture. I think the "soft" requirements we have are more than good enough to deter players that are not experienced or serious enough while also not requiring you literally put in X hours into the job like this were a forklift certification or something

Well, it’s not really strictly soft if there’s a x number of months played hard restriction in place as well. That in itself’s a lot greater than fifteen hours played as sec.

At least there are way more applicants with the new app though. I don’t think Goon’ll ever do a hard time limit/open it up to all mentors which sucks, imo.

What’re the hard numbers on what % of rounds have a HoS? I’d guess 8%?

edit: excl goon 1 & rounds late @ night

[Vengarr]

This is possible with shitcurity members, as they tend to ruin one or two different round experiences and get called out on their shit really fast. The HoS on the other hand has access to really nasty shit and a potential army that probably won't question him when he says "tranq this prick and chuck him into space", making it difficult to know who's to blame til the damage has been done.

In other words, they're exactly the same as the Captain. The Captain has all the same power and authority to ruin rounds, they can unlock the crates easily with a little know-how, and even if they don't they can just order shit from Cargo.

I've done all kinds of shit as Captain. No one questions you if you have the hat.

This case could be made for literally all but the absolute most basic of roles. Let's remove science because someone is griefing with explosions, let's remove QM cause someone is griefing with phasers, let's remove mining because someone is griefing with horrifying weapons and armor, let's remove engineering because this is like the tenth time the engine has caught fire and I'm starting to think it's on purpose.

You can grief in any role, sure. But if a job is solely attracting griefers and its' existence is making the game worse, is it your position that it should not be removed? (Apart from clown) If HoS is really such a pivotal role that can only be entrusted to the elite few, does it really belong in the game?

To be clear though, my argument is that it's not actually that important at all. Not that it should be removed.

If you don't want to write an essay, then don't apply for HoS. It's just to weed out people who don't want to seriously consider making the game more fun for everyone more or less, and it honestly seems like it's working.

I wrote an essay. The problem isn't that there's a barrier for entry, it's that the barrier is stupidly high and unwarranted given the power and responsibility you get. That barrier is not actually doing what its supposed to. It was supposed to raise the quality of players in the position. Instead, it has more or less removed the position entirely.

What’re the hard numbers on what % of rounds have a HoS? I’d guess 8%?

I'd say 5% or fewer on Goon2.

[Wisecrack34]

I like the application, would probably apply if I was able to play rn