time played restriction for sec

[robertGN]

Events of people abusing security should be reported and dealt with, but it's still happening almost every round. I've seen multiple regulars on the discord voice their intent to stop playing security until this calms down a bit, which is making the problem even worse. I personally gave security a shot a few rounds ago, and I was appalled at how my fellow officers behaved.

That said, I'm still against putting time restrictions on roles. Not every new recruit is going to be awful, some read the multiple wiki pages we have on being a good officer and do alright for their first rounds as security. I don't think there's anything we should do about this wave of bad security besides continuing to report them and waiting for things to recover.

[Flaborized]

I think that security is the hardest job to play right off the bat and probably the worst job for a new player who knows almost nothing to pick. It can be easy to frustrate other players if you don't know the "tone" of Goon and what people here expect from security. I don't think "Getting mobbed and looted and yelled at for being bad at security all while not understanding what is happening and still not having a full grasp on the controls" is a very good first experience. Sec and the AI are the only two jobs people consistently will get really mad at you for messing up and so I think that super new players should be discouraged in some way from picking sec for their first job. Maybe there could be little icons next to each job that says like "EASY" or "HARD" or something so people have an idea of what jobs are better for a beginner.

[qwertyquerty]

I vote no way at all

[Technature]

I understand the idea and agree with it but I feel the idea of "Just report secs being absolute shit and let the admins job ban them" does well enough. Admins can help people who might have been fucked over. Better to get a shitler out of the way immediately than wait for them to act shit over several rounds.

[Xeram]

I've been administrating in other games besides SS13 a while now and recently had to deal with a few player surges. Mostly consisting of children.

If I've learned anything from them, it's that a majority of users breaking rules and otherwise being awful are absolutely opportunists and will typically vanish given a moderate amount of wait/dead time or resistance. There's always dedicated shitters and they can be terribly annoying, but you really can save yourselves a massive amount of headache for both players and staff with a few round's time barrier between jobs that start off very powerful (Any job that can effectively ruin someone's round by picking up and using one or two items they have full and fast access to IE tasers + cuffs, eguns).

Good users play their 3 or 4 rounds of time, get acclimated to the community some, and are let loose. Opportunists who aren't presented an easy and low time commitment way to be a nuisance for others either bore quickly and leave or abandon their plans to be an issue and typically move on to be a Good user. Terrible users are intent on being awful and frankly will probably manage to get banned and leave the community well before they get past the small hurdle.

This last bit needs a grain of salt with it too, but having a new player play security is probably one of the most awful ways to introduce them to the community, probably sharing space with the AI. Most security rounds I can recount were absolute pure embodiments of the worst parts of the community and the worst player experience I've ever had on goon with the constant greytide. I can't imagine it's any better with new players on both ends. As far as a first impression(s) for a new player, dumping them into security is probably the worst thing.

[Frank_Stein]

I think the idea has merit, mostly on the points that Xeram brings up. Being Sec your very first round would be overwhelming, in an already overwhelming for newcomers game.

I don't know if I fully agree any roles should be cut off, but I think some kind of hand holding early on might be helpful in general. Maybe certain roles could favor playtime during job selection, so it's not impossible to be picked but not as likely?

[Technature]

I would not be against rigging the system so that you're not as likely to be shoved into something that could fuck people over easily, yourself included.

[kyle2143]

Yeah, I'm going to throw my hat in for this idea. I think it would be very helpful in cutting out grief and shitters; especially given the recent wave of new players over this last week or so. I said as much when it came up on discord, it's rather non-invasive to the people it would effect and can be completely ignored by 99% of players.

I will say, the main issue is preventing griefers from playing, but it will also have (what I consider to be) an added benefit of also preventing complete beginners from playing sec. Call me an elitist Wonk; but I think security is, without exception, the most important role on the station and that those players need to be held to a higher standard. In this context, it's not about making anyone feel inferior or to marginalize them, but to give them breathing room to learn the controls and how to play when they are new. If that is truly an issue to many people and I really don't think it would be, it could even be a silent buffer where it will just ignore a favorite or high priority security selection in your job panel for the duration.

Personally, I have a sort of implicit trust in security because I know they are held to a higher standard in terms of grief and knowing they don't start as antagonists and I think that others do as well. But grief erodes that trust.

The issue here is that there are a lot of new players, and there are now also a lot of new admins since the new wave, but each instance of a brand new griefing sec requires personal attention from one of those admins, but that both takes effort and doesn't prevent the original offence.

Similarly, it will encourage new players to play other non-essential roles before they decide to jump right to playing security so they have time to either learn the controls or acclimate to the way security is generally played on goonstation. Hopefully both. It is probably not obvious to someone who just arrives how important the role of security is to the overall enjoyment/successfulness of the round. So they might have some time to get an understanding of that from the outside of security for a couple rounds instead of being screamed at for being shitsec on their first round when they don't even really have the necessary context to understand what they're doing wrong.

Adding a 4 or so round buffer from security is an imposition, certainly, but it is extremely minor. It would deter the unrepentant griefers, and I dare say even help new players. I heard it said that it would be a turn off for players coming from other servers to goon for the first time, but to that I say that you should try playing a less vital role for a couple rounds before maining security. Personally, I'd go as far to say that it is bad form to join a brand new server and immediately choose play security before any other role.

One reasonable con I have heard is that it would be a hassle for old players with new Byond Keys coming back. This is definitely true, no two ways about it. But it is an extremely rare occurrence, even more so for people who would return to only play a couple rounds of security. So I don't think it's quite so reasonable to hinge decisions on that demographic as it is to the main community which vastly outnumbers it.

As a personal note, if someone is so offended by the fact that they aren't able to play Security Officer in their very first four rounds that they leave and never come back, I say "who cares?". It's not an obscene requirement and Security Officer has some of the most impact on intra-round plot. This makes things easier on the admin staff in terms of extraneous admin helps and makes security better for the rest of the crew as a whole.

[OMJ]

I've been administrating in other games besides SS13 a while now and recently had to deal with a few player surges. Mostly consisting of children.

If I've learned anything from them, it's that a majority of users breaking rules and otherwise being awful are absolutely opportunists and will typically vanish given a moderate amount of wait/dead time or resistance. There's always dedicated shitters and they can be terribly annoying, but you really can save yourselves a massive amount of headache for both players and staff with a few round's time barrier between jobs that start off very powerful (Any job that can effectively ruin someone's round by picking up and using one or two items they have full and fast access to IE tasers + cuffs, eguns).

Good users play their 3 or 4 rounds of time, get acclimated to the community some, and are let loose. Opportunists who aren't presented an easy and low time commitment way to be a nuisance for others either bore quickly and leave or abandon their plans to be an issue and typically move on to be a Good user. Terrible users are intent on being awful and frankly will probably manage to get banned and leave the community well before they get past the small hurdle.

This last bit needs a grain of salt with it too, but having a new player play security is probably one of the most awful ways to introduce them to the community, probably sharing space with the AI. Most security rounds I can recount were absolute pure embodiments of the worst parts of the community and the worst player experience I've ever had on goon with the constant greytide. I can't imagine it's any better with new players on both ends. As far as a first impression(s) for a new player, dumping them into security is probably the worst thing.

ty Xeram

yesterday during a traitor detective round of mine a cop took jeffery jefferson and bucklecuffed them into the little judge's booth on cog1 and told them to "think about what you've done". he bonked them with a saxophone.

nobody will be able to ever convince me that this idea is a bad one to stop the wave of these assholes. the only problem people are having with it are the precedent it sets: and to that i say why not just use this idea as a temporary stopgap until the tide settles?

other rebuttal is "yeah let people ahelp"- why not reduce the amount of adminhelps? what's the problem with reducing rulebreakers?

and to the "not every new recruit is going to be awful"- please play some HoS on 2 when it's >60+ and let me know what you think!

a lot of "veteran" players have been mentioning how much it sucks dealing with power trippers as HoS and losing the will to do so- i think i'm damn near one of the last ones left and that's because i give out abstract tier beatings to shitters out using my baton as if it was jackson pollock's paintbrush.

so less heads of securities to stem this tide...which leads to even worse of a tide!

remember: not a time restriction for captain, for HoP, for CE, for RD, for MD, but just security because this is where assholes gravitate to (cog himself mentioned on the discord that people pick security as an early job because you get weapons early one)- speaking from being the biggest security asshole on goonstation.com for many many years.

tl;dr the rebuttals don't really make sense and are geared towards not setting a precedent which to my point is that this doesn't need to be a permanent change.

[Sov]

I suggest a simple pop up summarizing space law with a little do not show again button

This way they have seen the expectations of sec but are otherwise completely unimpeded from playing the role

[Wisecrack34]

Just a note that the longer we take to put a solution in place (no matter what it may be) the more players that may be turned off of the server or game due to being harassed by poor security officers

[Frank_Stein]

I think we also gotta define what is greifing as Sec. I personally don't see much wrong with Sec acting a little jerkish, provided they aren't arbitrarily targeting you, do no serious damage (leaving you locked up, losing your items, getting you hurt) and knock it off when either when the other person shows they don't want to play along, or things get serious elsewhere

[Spoodle]

I will admit that I haven't had a lot of time tonplay during this new wave of players, and when I have, it's been on the RP server. I do agree that there should be a small playtime requirement before getting to play security, however.

Perhaps this should've been made a poll?

[Zamujasa]

I've been administrating in other games besides SS13 a while now and recently had to deal with a few player surges. Mostly consisting of children.

If I've learned anything from them, it's that a majority of users breaking rules and otherwise being awful are absolutely opportunists and will typically vanish given a moderate amount of wait/dead time or resistance. There's always dedicated shitters and they can be terribly annoying, but you really can save yourselves a massive amount of headache for both players and staff with a few round's time barrier between jobs that start off very powerful (Any job that can effectively ruin someone's round by picking up and using one or two items they have full and fast access to IE tasers + cuffs, eguns).

Thinking about it some more I agree with this and other replies where 3-4 rounds of no Sec job access would be good.

[Berrik]

Give the HoS the power to jobban people from sec.