[MERGED PR] Scaling pipe leakage

[Cheffie]

Temperature CAN rise exponentially but only with pressure in the pipes. currently the pressure lost is so much even if you spent all shift welding the pipes the burn would still die. and welding pipes for 40-50 minutes is not enjoyable or engaging. especially so when the majority of my CE games it was only me in the engine.
I also don't really get your point about not interacting with the engine any further since if you just do a char burn you can have the engine done in 2 minutes and not touch it for the rest of the shift.
Edit: I just don't see why nerfing pipeburns into the ground, with no alternative, is needed, as without them again it makes maxcap canbombs almost impossible as well as the two medals "1.98 jigawatts" and "for your ohm good" on all maps except kondaru and MAYBE destiny

[TrickyWolfer]

If temperature can rise exponentially I don't see why a constant upper bound is necessarily warranted.

Are you saying that overcoming the proposed upper bound should be rewarded by not having to interact with the engine further?

I feel like player who chose to do hellburn already signed up for themselves that they would rather work in the engine for the whole shift and get ready for any incoming heat leaks. Like Cheffie above me, if your point was to remove any no-interaction with engine, why bother having a char burn?

Yes, I do feel like if we could leave a burn that high alone, that alone is a massive reward, as doing such burns has been really tricky and requires a lot of babysitting early on with massive risk of dying. Engineers usually settle around PTL or create many kinds of hot-plasma related stuff while they're content leaving the burn going without any more tinkering (aside from upgrading the TEG). 

The current system in the pipes really does not allow any pressure retaining in the pipes. 24/7 on pipes removes the window where we could instead upgrade the TEG through plating or lube, or even setting up the PTL, hell, even answering breach calls. Combine that with the low-count of engineering players, what you'll get is basically a one-man job most of the time. To finally overcome the pipe pressure is a massive relief, this means free time for the engineers to answer many construction-related calls and basically create big things with the budget problem thrown out from the window.

For me, it's not engaging, it's a pain in the ass. The cap has been way too high and I feel like that instead discourage many engineers to test their skills since the burn will die anyways.

[Kotlol]

Let me add this... engineering is most of the times the most understaffed.
People still are okay playing medbay since it's needed, abit boring but it variates each shift.
Science has so much variation it's one of the most packed of shifts.
Botany is hit and miss but most can do whatever stupid stuff they want.
Mining is simple, not the biggest thing.. and has some random elements to it.
Cargo is always abit random and fun.
Mechanics lets you experiment but also help and fix the station.

And then there's engineering...
Wich mostly delvoves to: "Get engine running" or "Get engine running to the max" then you either : "Go for ridiclous power levels with burns you gotta maintain constantly" ...So if something gets damaged on the station.. Engineering won't fix it since the engine is so high maintance now.
But if they don't... they are just mostly twiddling their tumbs to hope they gotta fix something or deploy meteor shields.

The main issue with the engines they are... "BORING" and "TEDIOUS"
The singularity engine on Donut 3 on the other hand is... interresting to say the least, but one F up and you got no engine and once it's done there isn't much you can do till cargo has money... This is why in Donut 3 most engineers start building whatever. And infact most engineers lately just focus on building whatever they want insted of making the best engine output.

While my plating the pipes fixes issues with this PR and makes it abit more interactable.. it doesn't change the fact that engineers have alot of space to cover and maintain for minimal rewards and maximum risk.

Now derailing enough.... What I think engineering needs is a way to get the pay off from doing extreme burns right away then just PTLing it. What if they could I don't know? Hang a machine next to it that charges MEGA BATTERY CELLS! Ment to power space ships and heavy duty devices? They can sell it or use it for something else.
More gratifiying then an achievement and a PTL since now you got a physical thing to work with.
Just an idea.

[Jazzy Blues]

If temperature can rise exponentially I don't see why a constant upper bound is necessarily warranted.

Are you saying that overcoming the proposed upper bound should be rewarded by not having to interact with the engine further?

I fully agree with what the others responses to this is.

As mentioned I am confused as to what you mean by that the engine does not need interaction further. It is completely viable to work on the engine all round tweaking and experimenting with it on a normal pipeburn to either maximize power or getting up to other shenanigans, as I said in an earlier post the TEG has so many more uses than simply generating power.

And even if you set a pipeburn up in a way that gives exponential gain without having to babysit it, and choosing to go about maybe repairing the station instead for example, how is that a bad thing? In any way at all how could that be a bad thing? It gives freedom to the players of an incredibly open game, not restricting you of having an enjoyable experience in whichever way you want. And all that is not even mentioning how you've always been able to fire and forget with the char burns, those burns take like 30 seconds to setup for goodness sake! The pipeburns take a lot of experience and a fair amount of time on a good day. 

I don't know if my perspective is flawed or not but to me personally, it feels like even if the intention was to make the experience better with the nerf, it has only made it worse for the people affected by it, and I know others feel the same, that's why I don't understand why nothing has been done to at least hold a vote, or an actual discussion about unmerging this. 

So far there are only 2 posts from you on this discussion, a discussion with almost 50 individual posts, and your first one was even before the merge itself if I recall correctly. Now a week later you respond here which I do appreciate, but your response is 2 sentences, of not really anything that will let us see your perspective on this at all. I think that communication is really important always, especially on here and when there is a fair amount of players frustrated with this change. I'd like to believe that you at least take our point of view and our responses to this merge into consideration even if you don't respond too much, but this question made me concerned:

"Are you saying that overcoming the proposed upper bound should be rewarded by not having to interact with the engine further?"

Many previous posts on here make it really clear that there's is so much more to pipeburns than setting it up and then forgetting about it, but you asking this question makes me feel like you haven't read through a pretty large amount of them, I could very well be wrong but if I'm not then man, come on.

[Azrun]

I think committing to a pipburn with the possibility of exponential power is a choice that should appropriately cost against the benefits.  Exponential power allows for running all equipment on the station at maximum speed.  Constant use of the teleporter. Money Money Money…

The engineering team has also committed to performing an action that puts that team and possibly the entire station at risk. Hotwiring of the engine can turn the station into an electric nightmare.  Powerglove users to cosplay as Darth Sidious.  A convenient supply of warmed gas that can be used to unleash plasma fires or explosives.  Spreading of heat that if unaddressed will cause most of the flammable and combustible material across the station to be no more.

“Give a reason to repair pipes once more optimal temperature gains being[sic] achieved.”

The intent of the change was to resolve the fact that after you meet a point in the pipeburn the constant loss of pressure per segment is inconsequential.  It is completely mitigated by the heat generated at more optimal mixes and the introduction of additional gas.  Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.  Putting an upper cap on the maximum pressure loss per segment per tick is antithetical to the purpose of the change, as you are saying that that limit should be able to be overcome.  Then why even have pipe leaking in the first place, as a skill check?

This change is also intended to help open the door for adjustments to how power feeds into other things (PTL, Powergloves, …) as those problems become difficult to balance between the typical use case vs an exponential use case.  I think the presence of exponential power is fun and goofy but not if it is easily achieved by an individual with minimal effort and some setup.

The utilization of matsci or something like silicate’s interaction with glass would be an interesting way for engineering to be able to adjust pipe’s fatigue pressure.  But that is beyond the scope of this PR.

[TrickyWolfer]

I think committing to a pipburn with the possibility of exponential power is a choice that should appropriately cost against the benefits.  Exponential power allows for running all equipment on the station at maximum speed.  Constant use of the teleporter. Money Money Money…

The engineering team has also committed to performing an action that puts that team and possibly the entire station at risk. Hotwiring of the engine can turn the station into an electric nightmare.  Powerglove users to cosplay as Darth Sidious.  A convenient supply of warmed gas that can be used to unleash plasma fires or explosives.  Spreading of heat that if unaddressed will cause most of the flammable and combustible material across the station to be no more.

“Give a reason to repair pipes once more optimal temperature gains being[sic] achieved.”

The intent of the change was to resolve the fact that after you meet a point in the pipeburn the constant loss of pressure per segment is inconsequential.  It is completely mitigated by the heat generated at more optimal mixes and the introduction of additional gas.  Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.  Putting an upper cap on the maximum pressure loss per segment per tick is antithetical to the purpose of the change, as you are saying that that limit should be able to be overcome.  Then why even have pipe leaking in the first place, as a skill check?

This change is also intended to help open the door for adjustments to how power feeds into other things (PTL, Powergloves, …) as those problems become difficult to balance between the typical use case vs an exponential use case.  I think the presence of exponential power is fun and goofy but not if it is easily achieved by an individual with minimal effort and some setup.

The utilization of matsci or something like silicate’s interaction with glass would be an interesting way for engineering to be able to adjust pipe’s fatigue pressure.  But that is beyond the scope of this PR.

I will admit loss on this one. While the intention of the PR is great, it still leaves us engineers bit down due to high-power generation being "robbed" off. It's not only pipeburn, in general atmos pipe need to withstand really high pressure, think a good Molitz B chamberburn will also be affected. Pipeburn is just one of the most popular setup due to the fact Molitz B's pretty jank. A nerf to the PR would still be welcomed, thought not necessarily only add maxcap.

I get it the reason was balancing, but right now to almost fully pull out the means for engineering to make exponential power due to player creative utilization with almost no alternatives also feels a bit wrong (for me). I feel like this would be another topic for another day, not exclusively tied to this PR thread. Until we can find a way to create exp. power again or fix some issues to promote power-generating again, we'll see what we can do to go around the update.

I don't know what the other engineers think, but that's my thought. Thank you for clarifying, Azrun.

[tamakona]

I think committing to a pipburn with the possibility of exponential power is a choice that should appropriately cost against the benefits.  Exponential power allows for running all equipment on the station at maximum speed.  Constant use of the teleporter. Money Money Money…

The engineering team has also committed to performing an action that puts that team and possibly the entire station at risk. Hotwiring of the engine can turn the station into an electric nightmare.  Powerglove users to cosplay as Darth Sidious.  A convenient supply of warmed gas that can be used to unleash plasma fires or explosives.  Spreading of heat that if unaddressed will cause most of the flammable and combustible material across the station to be no more.

“Give a reason to repair pipes once more optimal temperature gains being[sic] achieved.”

The intent of the change was to resolve the fact that after you meet a point in the pipeburn the constant loss of pressure per segment is inconsequential.  It is completely mitigated by the heat generated at more optimal mixes and the introduction of additional gas.  Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.  Putting an upper cap on the maximum pressure loss per segment per tick is antithetical to the purpose of the change, as you are saying that that limit should be able to be overcome.  Then why even have pipe leaking in the first place, as a skill check?

This change is also intended to help open the door for adjustments to how power feeds into other things (PTL, Powergloves, …) as those problems become difficult to balance between the typical use case vs an exponential use case.  I think the presence of exponential power is fun and goofy but not if it is easily achieved by an individual with minimal effort and some setup.

The utilization of matsci or something like silicate’s interaction with glass would be an interesting way for engineering to be able to adjust pipe’s fatigue pressure.  But that is beyond the scope of this PR.

> Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.

This is incorrect. If we're talking about pipeburns, which I believe is the most popular in recent methods of generating exponential power, I think most will agree that it's not a set-and-forget kind of setup. An engineer needs to constantly monitor and manipulate things such as the oxygen saturation and input pressure of the gas, in order to keep the power growth exponential. In addition, running a pipeburn always needs outside help. Even with holes everywhere, the engineer will be exposed to hot gas, meaning the engineer often has to seek assistance from borgs or medical personnel. Sometimes the local APC powering the engine's circulators lose power and needs to be restarted, and in almost every case a second person is needed for this jumpstart process. Even little things, such as replacing the semiconductor and adding lubrication needs help from miners and scientists. It is certainly not "individual" nor minimal effort. It takes a lot of knowledge, intuition, experience, and teamwork to get a good exponential burn going, even prior to this change. The need to stand still welding pipes in a hostile environment is an added layer of extreme tedium to an already complicated process, and with the nature of how pipes rupture the change does not as much add cost as it does remove benefit entirely, so as a person who very much enjoys the role of engineer and the element of puzzle-ry that comes with the TeG I must say I very much dislike this change.

I do, however, understand the need to change some of the widespread damage that such an engine setup can do, but I am 100% confident that this change is not the proper way to do it. I think it would be much more productive to implement changes that limit the amount of danger the engine setup can pose to everyone else, especially unintentionally, because then I do not see how the intentional methods of weaponizing the engine is any different to a scientist spending half an hour in isolation out of everyone's view crafting highly destructive TTVs or deathchems. One of the easiest changes would be to add more natural insulation surrounding the engine room in every map, such as forcefields naturally spawned in and activated; said forcefield could be deactivated or removed with permission from the captain.

also power gloves are thoroughly wack and needs a scaling nerf

As for typical vs exponential use, I realize there is a large disparity between the two, but I think the main issue is that getting big engine numbers is typically a - as the wiki says - pissing contest, and the enjoyment comes from seeing big numbers, one-upping yourself/others, and winning that pissing contest. There's really no incentive to be satisfied with a middle ground; in fact the one reward I can think of for engineers that go above and beyond right now is that jiggawatt medal for the CE, which even necessitates exponential use to get. If there were more methods to reach more "middle ground" levels of power at an appropriately adjusted cost with incentives for doing so, then maybe the disparity issue will be solved.

(oh and btw from talking to the people i know who do funny hot burns apparently the pipe leak change has made it even more uncontrollably dangerous due to the larger amount of hot gas being more difficult to dissipate lmao)

[Cheffie]

I think committing to a pipburn with the possibility of exponential power is a choice that should appropriately cost against the benefits.  Exponential power allows for running all equipment on the station at maximum speed.  Constant use of the teleporter. Money Money Money…

The engineering team has also committed to performing an action that puts that team and possibly the entire station at risk. Hotwiring of the engine can turn the station into an electric nightmare.  Powerglove users to cosplay as Darth Sidious.  A convenient supply of warmed gas that can be used to unleash plasma fires or explosives.  Spreading of heat that if unaddressed will cause most of the flammable and combustible material across the station to be no more.

“Give a reason to repair pipes once more optimal temperature gains being[sic] achieved.”

The intent of the change was to resolve the fact that after you meet a point in the pipeburn the constant loss of pressure per segment is inconsequential.  It is completely mitigated by the heat generated at more optimal mixes and the introduction of additional gas.  Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.  Putting an upper cap on the maximum pressure loss per segment per tick is antithetical to the purpose of the change, as you are saying that that limit should be able to be overcome.  Then why even have pipe leaking in the first place, as a skill check?

This change is also intended to help open the door for adjustments to how power feeds into other things (PTL, Powergloves, …) as those problems become difficult to balance between the typical use case vs an exponential use case.  I think the presence of exponential power is fun and goofy but not if it is easily achieved by an individual with minimal effort and some setup.

The utilization of matsci or something like silicate’s interaction with glass would be an interesting way for engineering to be able to adjust pipe’s fatigue pressure.  But that is beyond the scope of this PR.

> Thus after a certain point it is time to seal up the TEG and go do something else because there isn’t really anything to do in there just reap the benefits.

This is incorrect. If we're talking about pipeburns, which I believe is the most popular in recent methods of generating exponential power, I think most will agree that it's not a set-and-forget kind of setup. An engineer needs to constantly monitor and manipulate things such as the oxygen saturation and input pressure of the gas, in order to keep the power growth exponential. In addition, running a pipeburn always needs outside help. Even with holes everywhere, the engineer will be exposed to hot gas, meaning the engineer often has to seek assistance from borgs or medical personnel. Sometimes the local APC powering the engine's circulators lose power and needs to be restarted, and in almost every case a second person is needed for this jumpstart process. Even little things, such as replacing the semiconductor and adding lubrication needs help from miners and scientists. It is certainly not "individual" nor minimal effort. It takes a lot of knowledge, intuition, experience, and teamwork to get a good exponential burn going, even prior to this change. The need to stand still welding pipes in a hostile environment is an added layer of extreme tedium to an already complicated process, and with the nature of how pipes rupture the change does not as much add cost as it does remove benefit entirely, so as a person who very much enjoys the role of engineer and the element of puzzle-ry that comes with the TeG I must say I very much dislike this change.

I do, however, understand the need to change some of the widespread damage that such an engine setup can do, but I am 100% confident that this change is not the proper way to do it. I think it would be much more productive to implement changes that limit the amount of danger the engine setup can pose to everyone else, especially unintentionally, because then I do not see how the intentional methods of weaponizing the engine is any different to a scientist spending half an hour in isolation out of everyone's view crafting highly destructive TTVs or deathchems. One of the easiest changes would be to add more natural insulation surrounding the engine room in every map, such as forcefields naturally spawned in and activated; said forcefield could be deactivated or removed with permission from the captain.

also power gloves are thoroughly wack and needs a scaling nerf

As for typical vs exponential use, I realize there is a large disparity between the two, but I think the main issue is that getting big engine numbers is typically a - as the wiki says - pissing contest, and the enjoyment comes from seeing big numbers, one-upping yourself/others, and winning that pissing contest. There's really no incentive to be satisfied with a middle ground; in fact the one reward I can think of for engineers that go above and beyond right now is that jiggawatt medal for the CE, which even necessitates exponential use to get. If there were more methods to reach more "middle ground" levels of power at an appropriately adjusted cost with incentives for doing so, then maybe the disparity issue will be solved.

(oh and btw from talking to the people i know who do funny hot burns apparently the pipe leak change has made it even more uncontrollably dangerous due to the larger amount of hot gas being more difficult to dissipate lmao)

Yeah I can confirm the funny hot burns on kondaru cook the engineers and the station even worse now. 

I would also like to see a nerf to the total pipe leakage since currently it just makes engineering on the different maps divided since you can easily pipeburn on kondaru on with its 10 pipes but it's almost impossible on cog 2 with its almost 50. maps like cog 2 are also very unrealistic to keep the pipes welded even more so when the majority of my engineering games its just me in the engine after its all setup... Especially on low pop when half the time there's no other engineers at all.