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+--- Thread: Makeshift weapons (/showthread.php?tid=6278)
RE: Makeshift weapons - Mordent - 08-21-2016
(08-21-2016, 06:13 PM)Vuk Farkas Wrote: ... words ...I'm going to head this off by saying that, as a player, I have a massive issue with you. You have just as much right to play on the server as I, however, but when on the roleplay server (note, "roleplay", not "just go test stuff" server) I'm there to have interactions with the crew. Wanting all access just to scan things defeats the point of the server, especially when we have either an AI (who can be asked to let you in) or most departments are staffed. My medical director is a by-the-book stickler, so if you barge in without permission or start getting lippy she will do everything she can to make your life difficult.
I'd rather not derail the conversation into "how 2 play rp?", so back on the topic of weapons:
(08-21-2016, 06:13 PM)Vuk Farkas Wrote: (for fuck sake make the civilian pods unlocked no one will bother spending hours cracking a pod code, when ya can hack a door in one minute to steal the sec or QM pods!) Not only that any effective weapon (i aint counting flamethrower here even if it is a really good weapon and tool) is obtained via random crate find, but nearly every god damn one of them requires ya to have acess... miners sometimes run into weapon crates, QM can order some, captain has that antique (which takes horrendous ammount of time just to assemble), security has some... which forces people to steal, rather than make their own (only a few explorers in science ever bothered grabbing even the flaregun...) Not to mention it should be legit for a mechanic to scan and sell non-lethals to NT workers, and lethals with permission from sec to fill the stations coffers!
The pods take maybe two-three minutes to crack, less if you're lucky. If you're stealing sec/QM pods on LLJK1 you're playing it flat-out wrong. On LLJK2, whatever.
I think the key here is why you think weapons are needed. You've given plenty of types of weapons you'd like but not given justification.
To even the playing field against traitors? They're supposed to have the edge. Against nuke ops? Totally fair, and worth discussing. Against changelings? Flamethrowers/welding torches/etc. are your best friend, changelings are not overly tough once you've identified them properly. Against wizards? Justified, and worth discussing.
What's your use case for these being the best option? Conversely, how do you prevent every staff assistant from packing?
RE: Makeshift weapons - misto - 08-21-2016
once the initial craze for them died down a few days after they were added, most basic staff assistant type chaps often forgot or failed to learn how to build flamethrowers and zip guns, weapons whose components are literally lying around everywhere. god, not even components. already-built zip guns are left lying around in maintenance by the mappers in various places and people barely ever use them because joe average doesnt want to go thru the bother of printing off some ammo to blow his own arm off.
beepsky and the guardbuddies arrest commoners if they see them holding a zip gun or flamethrower and this functionality could easily be extended to any new toys added.
these factors already do a fair job of preventing spacemen from packing heat. plus, one more, very important factor: despite the classic anarchic reputation of grey tiding and mayhem, lljk2 is fairly well-policed by admins, people caught rule breaking and murdering people as non-antags get nailed down. grumpy ghosts aren't afraid to ask "is this person even really an antag?" and get admins involved
RE: Makeshift weapons - Nnystyxx - 08-21-2016
yeah there really isn't much Stupid Assistant Brigading on 2 because you get nutsed if you're shit to people, you can get churned out into a ban very quickly
certain antagonists will absolutely skullfuck you though and there's really nothing most of the crew can DO (read: wizards, nuke ops as mordent mentioned)
limiting factors include difficulty, risk of being arrested, etc. but i've learned in nuke ops to just fucking give up against the ops because NOTHING i do will do any harm to them whatsoever (short of like, space lubing everything and knowing the ancient button presses/hotkeys to avoid instantly getting hit and owned) and the spackershit and whatnot will just evaporate me immediately
and besides if people ARE stupid idiots with it, security does exist to police them as well aside from the actual antagonists
if certain antagonists so much as see you, you're dead, and those antagonists leave you with no realistic way of retaliating; hell sometimes a guy just decides to cave your head in
think about this metric for a second
antagonist: has power, always. probably has better stuff than the crew, supposed to slaughter everyone (if he wants)
unarmed crewman: weaker than antagonist, no chance, worse stuff than antagonist, not supposed to slaughter everyone, just defend himself
armed crewman: vague chance, still weaker, worse stuff than antagonist, STILL not supposed to slaughter everyone
same with security, they're always going to be generally better armed than anyone else and only robust tactics or numbers could obviously overwhelm them (no one greytides anymore by the way)
a nukie or traitor wouldn't become more unbalanced since this would be a DOWNGRADE for them, not altering their skill floor as it were, but it makes it possible for crewmen to actually contribute something other than dying like lemmings without having to be a meth-addled slip-jockey with the reaction times of a length of fucking fiber optic cable against people who can nigh instacrit/easily stun them
edit: from an rp perspective, too, people can have some means of arming themselves/organizing revolution without pipe bombs and flames permanently fucking up the station and not requiring mechanics to shit out 9999 eguns
is it such a dirty word for people to have literally any way to succeed in combat other than flash spamming
it just feels to me any sort of player agency or leg up is being argued against through the hypothetical of shitcan players that would still get banned if they were even using the garbage tool weapons that are being enshrined as the end all for a regular crewman
we have administration, it's not like we're giving nukes to people who will use them, there are limits to behavior
EDIT 2: ALSO it'd be nice for the #sol peeps to be able to make some weapons (they're scientists and engineers after all usually) without bugging security/cargo for phasers and eguns all round (everyone hates that, after all, why not curb it somewhat)
EDIT 3 OH BOY: ALSO A FLAMETHROWER OR ZIP GUN (WHICH EXPLODES VIOLENTLY) WOULD PROBABLY GET YOU AHELPED AS A NORMAL CREWMAN
RE: Makeshift weapons - atomic1fire - 08-22-2016
Most of the time when I make an improvised weapon of some sort as a nonantag, I try to avoid leaving the thing out in public.
My goals are usually either
1. For science
2. Self defense.
If I'm building a flamethrower, chances are I've probably decided to fill it with meth or space drugs or on the rare occasion I actually want to use it for self defense, I'd probably just acquire a bunch of morphine or haloperidol from somewhere if I were looking for a challenge.
I have yet to actually need to set someone on fire besides like one changeling, so I never do.
I've thought about one that is just filled with sugar and naming it after Wilford Brimley (cause diabetes) but that seems kinda over the top.
RE: Makeshift weapons - Vuk Farkas - 08-22-2016
(08-21-2016, 07:39 PM)Mordent Wrote:(08-21-2016, 06:13 PM)Vuk Farkas Wrote: ... words ...I'm going to head this off by saying that, as a player, I have a massive issue with you. You have just as much right to play on the server as I, however, but when on the roleplay server (note, "roleplay", not "just go test stuff" server) I'm there to have interactions with the crew. Wanting all access just to scan things defeats the point of the server, especially when we have either an AI (who can be asked to let you in) or most departments are staffed. My medical director is a by-the-book stickler, so if you barge in without permission or start getting lippy she will do everything she can to make your life difficult.
I'd rather not derail the conversation into "how 2 play rp?", so back on the topic of weapons:
(08-21-2016, 06:13 PM)Vuk Farkas Wrote: (for fuck sake make the civilian pods unlocked no one will bother spending hours cracking a pod code, when ya can hack a door in one minute to steal the sec or QM pods!) Not only that any effective weapon (i aint counting flamethrower here even if it is a really good weapon and tool) is obtained via random crate find, but nearly every god damn one of them requires ya to have acess... miners sometimes run into weapon crates, QM can order some, captain has that antique (which takes horrendous ammount of time just to assemble), security has some... which forces people to steal, rather than make their own (only a few explorers in science ever bothered grabbing even the flaregun...) Not to mention it should be legit for a mechanic to scan and sell non-lethals to NT workers, and lethals with permission from sec to fill the stations coffers!
The pods take maybe two-three minutes to crack, less if you're lucky. If you're stealing sec/QM pods on LLJK1 you're playing it flat-out wrong. On LLJK2, whatever.
I think the key here is why you think weapons are needed. You've given plenty of types of weapons you'd like but not given justification.
To even the playing field against traitors? They're supposed to have the edge. Against nuke ops? Totally fair, and worth discussing. Against changelings? Flamethrowers/welding torches/etc. are your best friend, changelings are not overly tough once you've identified them properly. Against wizards? Justified, and worth discussing.
What's your use case for these being the best option? Conversely, how do you prevent every staff assistant from packing?
yea ya make my life hard in the game, i ask "can i scan yer equipment and machines" and ya outright refuse me or at best allow me to do the job partially and deny me to scan the most needed equipment handheld scanners, goggles and the upgrade! if i ask for an implant ya make sure i cant get one (not even a health implant) while ya do a full body mod for the chaplain! Reason i ask for full access is exactly that, and i'm among the rare few who combs the station from time to time for the dead!
Considerin the AI is a player also, opening a dozen doors in medbay is anoying to the player (i dont need to mention other places), radio chat is full as it is, ya dont need me to spam it with "AI open the door" every 5 seconds (litterally), and in case ya didnt know mechanics are about experiments and tinkering! Not to mention ya kicked me from medbay many times when i was let in by medical staff and ya litterally ordered them not to asist me! ya do a lot of ooc grudge... (if ya play by the book stickler i play a stubborn mechanic with a fetish for experimentation, exploration and collecting all blueprints possible!)
And also ya failed utterly to read the "alternate use of weapons" i spoke of a lot, just as the flamethrower can be a chem sprayer, most weapons mentioned here can be alternate tools especially grenades and shotguns! (hell we already have non lethal grenades but they cant be scanned or crafted, like fire extinguishing grenades)
justification of weapons is not needed, (its like justification of why are tools in game and can be used as weapons) however givin people more weapons that dont involve fuckin up the station is a good thing, and i already said those weapons are mainly go give plebs somethin for defence, especially those adventuring and exploring (also the antag could have alternatives) its the same reason i want the explosion of the zip gun nerfed (trying to shoot the .38 stun round and blowing off walls and or a hole in the station is seriously OP and plain wrong!) and most of those weapons can have alternate uses anyway!
I spoke of the civilian pods (ya somehow fail to read fully what i wrote), because the sec pods and cargo pods are always unlocked! however the civ pods are not and i didnt figure out how to unlock those (ya could teach me ya seem to know how) and i dont wanna have to hack dors or gnaw someone for acess to a pod just to do some mining or get to a vendor! (or just off station)
RE: Makeshift weapons - Nnystyxx - 08-22-2016
seconding again what vuk said: the only real "craftable weapons" atm are zip guns and flamethrowers
the former inexplicably blows giant holes in the station (leads to breaches and ahelps)
the latter sets everything on fire and can do massive collateral damage; if it hits a fueltank you're donezo
i guess my issue is that our options go from "useless, requires tons of hits to do appreciable damage" to "nuclear, will horribly damage station" almost instantly
like, crewmen can make fuel bombs and pipebombs and will get immediately yelled at for using those things; antags basically have access to all that and way, way, way more
all the crew's real options either are ineffectual or are so destructive to property you can literally get banned for usage of them
RE: Makeshift weapons - atomic1fire - 08-22-2016
(08-22-2016, 04:11 AM)Nnystyxx Wrote: all the crew's real options either are ineffectual or are so destructive to property you can literally get banned for usage of themWhich is why I want craftable weapons that go somewhere inbetween.
Craftable Bows wouldn't replace tazers and lasers, and they certainly wouldn't prove always useful against shotguns and rpgs, but they could open up some fun assistant shenanigans like people trying to shoot fruit off people's heads and offer a decent one shot weapon that doesn't kill you on use. It could also have wear and tear so that overusing it would mean needing to keep extra cable coil on hand to replace the string. The bleed risk that comes with being stabbed with an arrow would also open up people being able to track victims or slow down rampagers by causing them to either visit medbay or pass out from bloodloss. More importantly arrows by themselves wouldn't cause collateral damage unless someone is a really bad aim. Also Backpacks could make a fun ghetto quiver.
Craftable nets would offer a good nonlethal method to mildly stun someone, and could maybe even apply to hostile mobs.
Spears would probably be extremely noticeable to beepsky, but could be used for funny gimmicks like spear surgery if that one patch is added. (Hold up, I can't fit spears in my backpack so I gotta grab my bonesaw spear)
The contraband system in place already means that someone without captain access can't really tell beepsky that their flamethrower is a good flamethrower and beepsky is a indiscriminate little guy. Just set lethal craftables as an arrestable thing and you've already taken care of most of the obvious threats other then running around with a fire extinguisher or throwing clf3 drinking glasses at people.
RE: Makeshift weapons - misto - 08-23-2016
hello my friends the chit chats in this thread have inspired me to try spriting
http://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=6951
i tried making an air pressure gun and a slamfire pipe gun
please come to that thread and give me advice or requests of items to try to make? am i making these sprites correctly? do i need to put them on some kind of standardized sprite sheet?
the air pressure gun would have a contruction recipe similar to the flamethrower, but without the fuel tank and igniter. it still uses the weldingtool as a trigger mechanism and air pressure valve, though. a welded pipe frame on the end forms the barrel from which rods could be launched. maybe it could even launch things at different speeds depending on the air tank's pressure release setting, exchanging number of shots capacity for stronger shots and vice versa. perhaps the air gun could even serve as a launcher to extend the range of the nets some ppl have been making. it could even propel ppl thru space sort of like how fire extinguishers do
the slamfire pipe gun is one of the simplest guns possible to build. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzZz6VOeLQ8 you can find tons of ppl making and shooting these on youtube. it's just a couple pipes slapped together with a spike inside the cap of the rear one to serve as firing pin. you point the open end towards the target and push the pipes together sharply to fire. though this is obviously intended for shotgun shells, i would recommend that 40mm grenade launching capability be removed from the small zip gun and given to the pipe gun.
the pipe gun's downside, besides its obvious one-shot-at-a-time limit, and the general difficulty of sourcing shotgun shells, would probably be a small% chance of knocking your spaceman on his own ass when firing. this is more than dangerous enough in a risky situation, while also being a bit gentler than the zip gun's explosive failure. i would recommend that the zip gun's explosive failure also be nerfed.
RE: Makeshift weapons - Vuk Farkas - 08-23-2016
Slamfire gun is actually made from just 2 pipes... ya need the barrel to be just the right size for the bullet, and the cylinder to be just the right size for the barel, with one end closed and a screw in it as a static firing pin (usually a pipe cap screwed on, hole drilled in center, and a screw screwed into it) but thwt that guy made on youtube is at best made from scrap he had with almoust 0 usage of tools...
to the design i mentioned just now, add a handle, a spring ower the barrel to push it backwards, and a trigger made from one sheet of metal, a frame to hold it all together (frame is actually part of the handle usually) and if yer good enough ya can put a magazine (and if needed a small hook to extract casings)
Congrats, depending on yer skills and ammo ya use ya can have an automatic, or a repeater, or even a semi-auto if ya tinker with the trigger, works just like a factory made weapon, except it lacks durability (unless ya plan to process the barrel with propane-butane to harden it) but the barrel is a lot cheaper, and i doubt anyone will raise an eyebrow in a hardware store for buying a seamless steel pipe! But in game wise barrels are easy to make, and should be easily replaced too)
Be warned tho unless ya make a stock to act as a recoil dampener, this type of weapon has big recoil, and without experience and a good grip, ya can end up hiting yer ribs or knocking out yer teeth if using strong shotgun shells or stronger ammo! (when i made a rifle using that design i made a stock from a rod, pipe a sheet metal and a spring to make a mechanism similar to cars shock absorbers, and while it solved the recoil issue the guns firing chamber which would be 10-20 cm in front of my face could slam back to be right next to my cheek (so i made a cheek protector from sheet of metal and slapped it onto the rear of the stock) firing stronger ammo without ear protection, especially if firing multiple times is not advised (temporary deafness just like when ya go to a loud disco, happens with normal factory made firearms too)
for the grenade launcher (at least iRL) i strongly suggest the break open design like in flareguns and shotguns, because of the forces involved... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenade_launcher
RE: Makeshift weapons - Nnystyxx - 08-23-2016
i tested a zip gun on the diner the other day
blew floortiles off, reduced some walls to girders, i think it straight up deleted a wall that was several tiles away from me
RE: Makeshift weapons - misto - 08-23-2016
excessive. getting the bullet shot into you, the gun breaking, and some bleed effect like when you get unlucky smashing bottles would be good punishment
RE: Makeshift weapons - Vitatroll - 08-23-2016
(08-23-2016, 02:14 PM)misto Wrote: excessive. getting the bullet shot into you, the gun breaking, and some bleed effect like when you get unlucky smashing bottles would be good punishmentUnless it's loaded with 40mm grenades or rpgs.
Maybe tie explosions to caliber? I agree that most should just cause bleed (shrapnel at most) and destroy the gun.
RE: Makeshift weapons - misto - 08-23-2016
the zip gun should probably be locked to not firing anything heavier than pistol calibers, i m o, but if its a feature ppl insist on keeping, scaling the failure blast with ammo type is only sensible
RE: Makeshift weapons - Noah Buttes - 08-23-2016
(08-23-2016, 02:38 PM)misto Wrote: the zip gun should probably be locked to not firing anything heavier than pistol calibers, i m o.
I disagree on the grounds that whipping out a tiny little zip gun only to shoot a 40mm smoke shell is hilarious.
RE: Makeshift weapons - BBEG - 08-23-2016
(08-23-2016, 02:54 PM)Noah Buttes Wrote:(08-23-2016, 02:38 PM)misto Wrote: the zip gun should probably be locked to not firing anything heavier than pistol calibers, i m o.
I disagree on the grounds that whipping out a tiny little zip gun only to shoot a 40mm smoke shell is hilarious.
yes but pretty unbalanced considering how easy it is to get/craft one.