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+--- Thread: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. (/showthread.php?tid=1957)
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Marquesas - 01-02-2014
Embolism Wrote:While I do think one-shot tasers are too much, 3 shots with the first shot being utterly useless is not the way to go about it. All it is encouraging is for Heads and Security to use lethal force with worrying regularity, and that's not good for anyone.
The first shot is nowhere near useless. It's confusion. You either can decide to stand still, opening yourself to be hit more, or start moving erratically, which will make you stick around in that general area but make hitting you harder. In the second case, you are still very much open for a melee attack from a stun baton or a pointblank shot. Unless your confusion gets you cornered. The point is security relies far too much upon the safety of distance using tasers and this update does damn right to cut it down. Besides, if you're a legendary gunslinger, just set it to burst stun and hit the shit out of your target.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Clarks - 01-02-2014
Embolism Wrote:This seems to show a mentality where traitor = rampager = fun, and anything that can possibly stop rampages = unfun. Very rampager-centric.
No. It's a mentality where traitors don't have to be scared of doing anything unless they are stealthy ninjas and have three backup plans.
Traitors are generally on their own, it's the cops who have most of the crew on their side. If you can't be bothered to get crew help or to use the flashbangs, the smoke launcher, officer beepsky or your stun baton, then you had better practice your aim.
Requiring multiple shots to stun a traitor means they have enough time to decide that running away is their best option.
It's not about making the job hard for officers, it's to make gunfights something else than a win all/lose all for the traitor.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - atomic1fire - 01-02-2014
Beepsky is always excellent backup when he's not emagged.
I once watched beepsky continuously stun a changeling who kept changing into a monkey and human to get out of beepsky's handcuffs.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Embolism - 01-02-2014
Marquesas Wrote:...or start moving erratically, which will make you stick around in that general area but make hitting you harder. In the second case, you are still very much open for a melee attack from a stun baton or a pointblank shot...
...The point is security relies far too much upon the safety of distance using tasers and this update does damn right to cut it down...
Exactly, Confusion can actually make it more difficult to hit you. A guy who's moving predictably and would've been an easy shot suddenly starts moving unpredictably, which more often than not makes it harder for you. As for running into melee range, I don't recall confusion shots preventing people from say, shooting you as you charge in with your baton.
You're right in that taser usage is cut way down. In its place laser and lethal gun ammo usage is brought way up.
Clarks Wrote:No. It's a mentality where traitors don't have to be scared of doing anything unless they are stealthy ninjas and have three backup plans...
...Requiring multiple shots to stun a traitor means they have enough time to decide that running away is their best option. It's not about making the job hard for officers, it's to make gunfights something else than a win all/lose all for the traitor.
I'm sure the reason why there are so few rampages is because most traitors are scared to do anything unless they are stealthy ninjas with three backup plans, am I right?
As I said I quite agree that one-shot-stun tasers are bad. That's why I don't advocate returning to that, just reducing the number of shots required from 3 to 2. As it is a taser is only good for one target and only if you don't miss more than one shot. I'd also point out that having the first shot being Confusion means you can't really get away, which kills your theory of "giving them enough time to choose to run".
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Karakoran - 01-02-2014
Clarks Wrote:A traitor is a dangerous guy with license to kill. Taking him on alone is a bad idea that is not guaranteed to succeed.Except half the time there is only one security guard and there's multiple antags. Plus if a traitor ever finds themselves actively fighting a mob then they deserve the beat down they will probably get. Aside from maybe having to fight two sec/command guys at once, they'll usually be picking people off one by one.
You want to raise your odds? Get help from bystanders, use flashbangs (try not to stun yourselves, eh). There's more to playing cop that shooting pew pew with a taser.
Traitors, on the other hands, are going to be fighting against a mob most of the time; the last thing they need is a mob with better guns.
Maybe raising the taser's clip won't be catastrophic. But complaining that it isn't efficient at stopping traitors is failing to understand that: A, the taser is not your only weapon. B, if you go alone against a traitor you shouldn't have the upper hand.
On a separate issue, if you think people don't play security because the crew is hostile and the weaponry insufficient; think of all the dull rounds you played when there were no overt traitors, or when the crew mobbed them before you got your chance.
Patrolling the station is a boring occupation compared to most other jobs, and if you want to beat up a traitor you can just go vigilante.
Not to mention the taser IS your only weapon as security, at least ranged. Unless you're throwing flash bangs around so you can end up stunning everyone involved, you're useless in any ranged combat.
I can understand not wanting to make it too hard for traitors, but they have tons of advantages too like being hidden, plenty of gear, a possible second chance after getting brigged, etc. Even with the best taser they still have the advantage in a one on one fight. If anything all a weak taser does is make rampages all the more easy. Fighting a guy with a laser gun, for example, is impossible with such weak tasers.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Clarks - 01-03-2014
Karakoran Wrote:Not to mention the taser IS your only weapon as security, at least ranged. Unless you're throwing flash bangs around so you can end up stunning everyone involved, you're useless in any ranged combat.Do you have any idea the defensive advantage armor gives security? If a traitor is using bullets they have to get closer, or their shots will cause no stun and cause very little damage. If a traitor is using stun weapons, they have the same problem you do.
The majority of traitors doesn't even have a ranged weapon.
Karakoran Wrote:I can understand not wanting to make it too hard for traitors, but they have tons of advantages too like being hidden, plenty of gear, a possible second chance after getting brigged, etc.Getting brigged and having all your traitor gear stolen or destroyed is so much fun. I bet every traitor who is not murdered on the spot loves spending half a round scrambling to get some kind of weapon and making a new plan.
A fight without a winner doesn't mean that you get killed by the traitor; it means you are going to have another fight later. Your late round is not boring anymore, wow.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Karakoran - 01-03-2014
Clarks Wrote:Do you have any idea the defensive advantage armor gives security? If a traitor is using bullets they have to get closer, or their shots will cause no stun and cause very little damage. If a traitor is using stun weapons, they have the same problem you do.Every antag except vampire has immediate access to a ranged weapon, not to mention being able to do things like break into the armory or use a little planning to get a gun. Half the time (if there's no MD) you can just ask the AI to let you into his office and take the tranq rifle. Part of being a traitor is using ingenuity to out do the crew. You don't have to be a ninja, but you shouldn't try to be Rambo either. I like how the role (usually) requires some forethought into it, rather than just being able to win being security can't take you down.
The majority of traitors doesn't even have a ranged weapon.
Clarks Wrote:Getting brigged and having all your traitor gear stolen or destroyed is so much fun. I bet every traitor who is not murdered on the spot loves spending half a round scrambling to get some kind of weapon and making a new plan.It's certainly better than dying, at the least. You can still do things like break into Engineering and start a plasma fire or get into chemistry to make some sarin. It sets you back, but you're still only a bit farther back than where you were at the beginning.
A fight without a winner doesn't mean that you get killed by the traitor; it means you are going to have another fight later. Your late round is not boring anymore, wow.
And I don't see how security losing every time is a fight without a winner. It seems more like a fight where the traitor murders all the security guards and farts on their corpses. If anything security winning is more like a fight without a winner, just because one side probably wont die.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Captain_Bravo - 01-03-2014
Wow, Clarks. You must fucking hate Hardcore Traitor rounds.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Clarks - 01-03-2014
Uh, I'd love to see hardmode objectives being handed out by admins more often. But let's not kid ourselves, hardmode treason is hard work. When you are a traitor sometimes you just want to relax and go on a rampage.
Karakoran Wrote:If anything security winning is more like a fight without a winner, just because one side probably wont die.Wrong, every time security wins all the fun gets killed.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Captain_Bravo - 01-03-2014
If you're trying to rampage without His Grace, a handful of Stimpacks, or a shitton of Meth you're Doing It Wrong.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Clarks - 01-03-2014
Captain_Bravo Wrote:If you're trying to rampage without His Grace, a handful of Stimpacks, or a shitton of Meth you're Doing It Wrong.Maybe if you are called Captain Bravo. When you are Red Archibald or Zorato (unban Zorato) you don't need stims and drugs.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Embolism - 01-03-2014
Clarks Wrote:Wrong, every time security wins all the fun gets killed.
If this doesn't show an overwhelming bias towards rampagers I don't know what does. Sure it's not not fun for a rampager when his brainless murder spree gets stopped, but it isn't usually isn't fun for random crew when they get permanently taken out of the picture by a brainless rampager either; and generally the victims of a rampage outnumbers the rampager.
A large component of fun is unpredictability, not knowing how something will turn out. You seem to believe that when rampager meet Security the rampager should always win unless greatly outnumbered, which with the few people willing to play Security (even less now) doesn't happen. What you seem to want is for your rampager rounds to be carefully choreographed, rather than risking a good chance your blatant obviousness backfires.
If you want to rampage then you should be ready to take risks or preparations (meth anyone?). To expect to rampage without significantly more risk is unrealistic, to demand change to this effect is selfish.
The fact of the matter is, rampagers are the most common type of traitors by far, far more than stealthy traitors and assassins. Whatever you try to claim to the contrary Security is and has never been gravely overpowered, certainly not to the point where there's "a mentality of poor rampagers being afraid to do anything if they aren't stealthy with three backup plans". I agree that one-shot-stun tasers make gunfights uninteresting, that's all I agree with.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Embolism - 01-03-2014
I'd like to pose again: can anyone think of a good reason why tasers shouldn't be two-shot-stun, so that Security can actually afford to miss, take on multiple traitors if a good shot and not have the first shot make things harder rather than easier?
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Crumplehat - 01-03-2014
Okay, read up on the thread and I have some points.
1) As sec I would LOATHE to use lethal rounds, because I'm a piss poor shot even after years of playing this game. "Well don't play sec", well, I usually don't by choice but I at least try to be good sec when I'm forced to. Which is why I wouldn't want to accidentally shoot people with lethal rounds that they'd have to deplete medbay to fix. Crossfire civvies tend to hold grudges, particularly if they get shot with something that can't be fixed by being shaken up.
2) As has been stated, there's rarely more than one officer around anymore. There's almost ALWAYS more than one antag, in addition to all the random assholes who make a game of giving Sec a wild goose chase and/or stealing their shit. So what "backup" are you going to call if there's more than one antag, both of them have revolvers/shotguns/meth/eswords, the armory's looted (by said dudes), and they've got the AI reprogrammed and half the crew's dead and they're trying to keep the shuttle from being called because they haven't killed every one yet? You're the only sec officer and you just arrived on the station with only the taser on your belt, WHAT DO YOU DO? A: Jump in the fucking trash compactor like you were probably going to do anyway because it's a depressing fucking job and everyone already hates you for it, jerk. Shame on you for infringing on those two guy's fun, they still need another hour to murder all the monkeys.
3) "Traitors don't use ranged weapons." No. Just no. Bowling suit, revolver, shotgun, syringe gun, dagger, his grace, butcher's knife, vuvu gun, pipebombs. Practically the only traitor weapon that isn't ranged is the csaber. And these assholes never miss, either, they always hit, with these one-shot kill weapons. You think taser's bad? Try getting brained by a fucking bowling ball and getting murdered in the hallway with a bunch of people just watching because the vigilante mob mentality has the cohesiveness of a sticky note. When I run across traitors I tend to try to focus more on helping their victims than subduing the perpetrator, because I don't wanna fucking die (not that it helps).
4) Back to the two guys thing. With only four shots, and having to use all of them to do any good at all, you'd be hard pressed to fight more than one guy alone (as you undoubtedly would be, for the aforementioned reasons, because the crew is jerks what don't wanna help you and the sec channel will be empty, your cries will go unheard one way or another). Say you expertly land all shots on the first target, you're now unable to stop the other guy from shooting you to death in the one or two shots HIS revolver takes to murder your ass. And then he gets the other guy's gun and murders you harder.
I get that the point of this is so people don't have to get methed up to be effective but when they're going to keep doing it anyway, it just makes Sec double plus impotent, doesn't it? Your average traitor is supposed to have a harder time of it than a changeling or a wizard or a syndie. That's the point. You're supposed to be subversive and sneaky, or take what's supposed to be the hard route and rampage, knowing you run the risk of getting jobbed to hell. Maybe one shot stun is too much but I'm gonna need SOMETHING if I'm ever going to play sec again.
Re: Tasers are bad. Stun bullets too. - Embolism - 01-03-2014
I'd also like to point out that making tasers so weak makes it much harder for Security to fight threats like Wizards and Syndicates.
One particular Syndie round ended in a showdown between three Syndies and the Command and Security staff. The Syndies were terrible (we shot each other multiple times and all took taser fire), but at the end of the day three Syndies walked away alive while the entire Command and Security staff lies dead.