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Ban appeal for Takov by unknown
#1
My IRC Username: Takov
Date and time of the ban: I don't remember, month ago?
Who banned me: Unknown, my ban was done through X, a bot. I tried asking around to find out exactly who did the ban, but got nowhere.
Message given in the kick, if present: I didn't save it at the time, but it was an Imgur link to a comic of Stalin shoving something down Hitler's ass. No, seriously.
Summary of events leading up to the ban: At least 8-10 people including myself were in a long political argument that went from subject to subject at least half a dozen times, at one point I was accused of "defending Western imperialism" (I was actually just trying to point out that all continents have been host to countless wars before making proper contact with each other, but I guess some people just hear what they want) and at another point I expressed some rather strong disapproval for communism. 
Why I should be unbanned: Look, I love you guys. I miss genuinely chatting in goonstation with you all.
I'm not sure what else to say since I was never officially given a reason why I was banned or even told who banned me.
#2
Hi, a link to the chatlog for the day Takov was kicked.

If you specifically want me to cherry pick reasons you were banned out of it I'd rather not waste my time going down that rabbit hole explaining something to someone who's already proven, based on that log, to argue in bad faith fairly consistently. You cause disruption and arguments in the channel, and that's a good enough reason for us to not want you there any longer.

However, I wasn't the one who banned you, so we'll see if they decide to unban you.

edit: also:

[00:44] Yes. Mostly because I'm irked by people who only talk politics in here and literally nothing else.

lol I haven't seen any politics discussion since you've been gone and also what a fucking double standard
#3
I've been in the chat for years, yet a few arguments is worth a ban? And how is it bad faith if I genuinely believe what I say?
What double standard? Are you claiming I talk only about politics, because that would be completely and utterly wrong. I talk a variety of subjects but lately mostly posted corgis and silly pictures.

Also that link just gives me "Permissions Error
Did not find authorization to view logs. "
#4
I believe the main reason why you were banned is fairly simple: your equivocation of all people on the left, be they radical communists, liberals or even left-leaning centrists, with the far right Neo-Nazi hategroups that are currently, as we speak, organizing in much of the west, but particularly in the US, where they have already killed one person who was protesting.

But with that out of the way (and I am sure you will go on to say that you did not equivocate the two at all) there is also the other reason why you would not be wanted in the IRC channel: you consistently, when arguing something, argue to insult/infuriate the other person.

The chatlogs, which I will copy paste into this thread in a pastebin after this post, depict a bit of a shitstorm of emotions that I do not think anyone would actually enjoy reading, but the main bit, I feel, other than you saying leftists, as a general rule, want genocide, was "Well the middle east was fairly violent before the crusades when that pedophile ran around raping and pillaging."

That line is paraphrased, but the line was your response to "The west (and especially the US) is responsible for a lot of current troubles in the middle east."

In case it isn't clear I will spell it out for you: as a response to saying that current instability of the middle east can partly (or fully!) be attributed to the US, you brought up that Mohammed is a pedophile who raped and pillaged in it. Why you said this I am not clear: did you think it was funny or did you merely want to offend?

Because you see, when you bring up something like "Mohammed was a pedophile who fucked children and raped" it is not only completely disconnected from the topic at hand, but also paints you as: someone who has weird opinions regarding Islam and also someone who does not really give a fuck at talking about his actual beliefs and is only there to piss off (or "trigger," to use the words of your fellow travellers) other people.

I should note that I am diametrically opposed to your politics, of couse, and that this may indeed color my perception of this ban. But that nonetheless I feel like the ban is justified and honestly you didn't really bring a lot to the channel.

https://pastebin.com/HvBxMdcW

And a highlight of it, posted solely for my amusement:

Code:
[15:49] <parf> im drunk rn
[15:49] <parf> and im not banned
[15:49] <parf> you fucking hypocrite
[15:51] <@Hufflaw> i dont think that makes sense to most people parf
[15:52] <parf> yeah it doesnt
[15:52] <parf> im sorryt

Also this was the ban reason:

[Image: GrD3Dkr.jpg]

edit: And just to reiterate: the reason you're banned is because you defended neonazis consistently, nothing else I have written here matters other than it makes you really annoying to talk to.
#5
(11-22-2017, 12:34 PM)Huff H Law Wrote: I believe the main reason why you were banned is fairly simple: your equivocation of all people on the left, be they radical communists, liberals or even left-leaning centrists, with the far right Neo-Nazi hategroups that are currently, as we speak, organizing in much of the west, but particularly in the US, where they have already killed one person who was protesting.

But with that out of the way (and I am sure you will go on to say that you did not equivocate the two at all) there is also the other reason why you would not be wanted in the IRC channel: you consistently, when arguing something, argue to insult/infuriate the other person.

The chatlogs, which I will copy paste into this thread in a pastebin after this post, depict a bit of a shitstorm of emotions that I do not think anyone would actually enjoy reading, but the main bit, I feel, other than you saying leftists, as a general rule, want genocide, was "Well the middle east was fairly violent before the crusades when that pedophile ran around raping and pillaging."

That line is paraphrased, but the line was your response to "The west (and especially the US) is responsible for a lot of current troubles in the middle east."

In case it isn't clear I will spell it out for you: as a response to saying that current instability of the middle east can partly (or fully!) be attributed to the US, you brought up that Mohammed is a pedophile who raped and pillaged in it. Why you said this I am not clear: did you think it was funny or did you merely want to offend?

Because you see, when you bring up something like "Mohammed was a pedophile who fucked children and raped" it is not only completely disconnected from the topic at hand, but also paints you as: someone who has weird opinions regarding Islam and also someone who does not really give a fuck at talking about his actual beliefs and is only there to piss off (or "trigger," to use the words of your fellow travellers) other people.

I should note that I am diametrically opposed to your politics, of couse, and that this may indeed color my perception of this ban. But that nonetheless I feel like the ban is justified and honestly you didn't really bring a lot to the channel.

https://pastebin.com/HvBxMdcW

And a highlight of it, posted solely for my amusement:

Code:
[15:49] <parf> im drunk rn
[15:49] <parf> and im not banned
[15:49] <parf> you fucking hypocrite
[15:51] <@Hufflaw> i dont think that makes sense to most people parf
[15:52] <parf> yeah it doesnt
[15:52] <parf> im sorryt

Also this was the ban reason:

[Image: GrD3Dkr.jpg]

edit: And just to reiterate: the reason you're banned is because you defended neonazis consistently, nothing else I have written here matters other than it makes you really annoying to talk to.

Simply believing in Horseshoe Theory does not equal "equivocation of all people on the left". I never even mentioned centrists at any point. My response was actually to the Crusades being brought up. The Muhammad comment was probably out of line yes, but I'd like to point out that this was in the middle of an argument that was nasty all-around. That said, weird opinions regarding Islam"? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_..._marriages

And I've never defended Neo-Nazis, nor am I despite your constant attempts to paint me as one, Hufflaw. I dream of a world where everyone has equal rights in a democratic society. Is that Nazisim to you?
(Not that you'd probably like such a world, being a Marxist if what you say in hellchannel 24/7 is anything to go by. Also, promising that you'll unban me if I read the Communist Manifesto and converted to communism is a little sad.)




...Look, honestly I don't even care about arguing anymore. Some shit is getting rough in my personal life, and all I'd like to do here is share corgis, silly pictures, and chat with the others in #goonstation. Nothing more.
#6
"hm, i appear to have been banned for arguing in bad faith and pissing people off, and it was specifically mentioned that the focus of the latest argument that finally got me booted was not really relevant" "i know, i'll continue to argue about how WELL, ACTUALLY i'm really right"

This isn't a 'argue that i have been right and everyone else is wrong all this time' situation. This is more a shut up, listen, and try to understand the perspective of others situation.
#7
(11-27-2017, 07:26 AM)popecrunch Wrote: "hm, i appear to have been banned for arguing in bad faith and pissing people off, and it was specifically mentioned that the focus of the latest argument that finally got me booted was not really relevant" "i know, i'll continue to argue about how WELL, ACTUALLY i'm really right"

This isn't a 'argue that i have been right and everyone else is wrong all this time' situation. This is more a shut up, listen, and try to understand the perspective of others situation.

Am I not allowed to defend myself when I'm accused of doing something I didn't do? Especially when one or more persons insists on a blatant falsehood to keep me banned?

I've never claimed that I've always been right, nobody ever is and anyone who thinks they are is delusional.  And Popecrunch, I've never seen you try to understand the perspective of others. On the contrary you have a habit of insulting people on a regular basis, and once you even told a user their mother should've aborted them with a coat hangar. Oh, and have you ever considered how many people in IRC are disgusted by all your ass and shitting stories you share out of nowhere?


Look, all this shit aside I don't intend on arguing at all in Goonstation if I'm unbanned, my only intentions are to make people laugh and smile.
#8
I don't believe you.

You were banned for being argumentative to a point it was disruptive to the channel, and in this ban appeal you are being argumentative towards the people you're appealing to. So argumentative, in fact, that people who didn't even have much of an initial beef with you, like myself, can see it would clearly be a bad idea to unban you. Your reactions in this thread are all I need, regardless of prior history.

You might argue that this is unfair as any effort to defend yourself is digging your hole deeper and deeper but thus exactly the crux of the problem: a ban appeal isn't a place to complain about being unjustly banned and to defend your innocence. A ban appeal is a place to demonstrate that unbanning you won't be a terrible idea. You have acted in this thread in the manner that saw you banned in the first place. Continuing arguments and blaming others is not the way to succeed here.

You might be wondering, how do you prove this incredibly vague motion of being not shit?

Well, at this junction, you can't. I'm sorry. You've proven repeatedly that your outlook towards this whole situation lacks a fundamental understanding of why you were banned, and three of your four posts in this thread alone have been attacking or blaming other people for your current situation, so I would expect this to happen very quickly in the irc channel if you were let back on.
#9
I was all for lifting this until I saw that response to Popecrunch. He is one of the most empathetic people I have ever met and has directly talked people out of mental breakdowns on more than one occasion - THAT I have witnessed with my own eyes.

How very dare you insinuate anything else. Get lost.
#10
Sure, I dunk on people once in a while.  However, I am able to tell when a line has been crossed, and when I cross it unintentionally, I apologize.  If I'm writing with an intent to repulse someone from the community - which only ever happens when many, many people make it very VERY clear that the target is not welcome and actively making things worse, then sure I give 'em both barrels.

I literally can not count the number of people who sent me a /msg or a .tell about how you were shitting up the joint.  Seriously, I stopped counting after ten or so.

There is a big, BIG difference between 'stirring up a little shit to make things interesting'* and 'disrupting the channel'.  You are solidly in the second camp.

*which should be handled oh so VERY fucking carefully, and halted IMMEDIATELY the very first time someone with halfop or above asks you to

The general spirit of your appeal, as has been observed by others, is that you flatly refuse to accept any responsibility for this ban.  You don't seem to recognize that THE VAST MAJORITY OF #GOONSTATION SUPPORTED YOUR BANNING AND WAS MUCH HAPPIER AFTER YOU HAD BEEN BANNED.  That alone would be reason enough to keep the ban in place, but the fact that you asked for specific reasons for your ban and then, instead of considering those reasons as potentially valid and thinking about changing your behavior to stop that shit, you immediately started defending that shit as valid (including the thinly veiled bigotry by implying that the actions of one person 1400 years ago is a valid grounds for criticizing an entire religion and every one of its followers) and otherwise pointing the finger at everyone you could think of except for yourself.

You seem to be struggling with really internalizing the concept that you are not the only person on the internet.  People are allowed to think you're a dickhead, and if there's a whole lot of them, they might be right.  With your appeal as written, you're asking the admin staff to believe that the entire channel, including the admins, are all fundamentally unreasonable and that you are the only sensible person in the channel.  Would you believe that of any other person? I sincerely doubt that, so maybe you should re-evaluate this appeal.

As it stands, this appeal really super is not going well for you.  I'm not going to go so far as to deny it, because it's not my ban, but here's a nickel's worth of free advice:  Post something like 'I'm going to think about all this' and walk away for at least a week or two.  When you have had some time to really consider things, come back, and write an appeal from the perspective of 'the admins and the people in the channel wanted me gone, and I've got to convince them to welcome me back.'  I promise you that you aren't going to accomplish that with arguing about how everybody's wrong but you and attacking everyone who disagrees with you.  The phrases 'I'm sorry' and 'I hadn't thought about ____ but I will do my best to keep it in mind' will go much, much further than attacking people and defending your previous statements.  Your previous statements are, for the purposes of a successful appeal, indefensible.  Even if you were able to come up with some combination of words that framed your previous statements and activity in a light that made them acceptable, the fact remains that many, many people saw your previous words and actions and thought them abhorrent.  Those feelings aren't going away.  You need to convince the population of the channel - not just the admins here on their behalf - that it is worth it to bring you back.

Are your posts in this appeal really the best way to accomplish that?  If you still believe so, you've got some thinking to do.  If not, then maybe we have something to talk about after all.

Regardless, I hope you have a great holiday.
#11
Takov - you weren't around when I tried to reply to the message you left me in IRC, so:

Your apology is appreciated, though not really necessary.  I don't hold any ill will or hurt feelings toward you, and I meant what I said above: I genuinely hope you can see past this disagreement, let it go, and approach this from a perspective of trying to be a valued member of our community again instead of digging your feet in and trying to re-argue old issues.  It's very easy to get caught in the trap of 'oh my god those dumbs just aren't getting it, maybe if i word it differently they'll understand' i mean shit, I've tripped up on that myself more times than I can really remember.  Getting banned is often harder on the banned person than it is on the banner, but maybe we can move past, and heal.

(for the love of all that's holy if you don't understand the reference in that last sentence i will strike your name from the book of life MYSELF)
#12
Alright. I'm more than willing to move past all of this, despite how I may act I really do love you guys.
#13
So, one day when I tried joining Goonstation on a whim I found that I wasn't banned? Anyway, so I hung out in goonstation again for a while (at least three weeks I think) with zero issue.

Then I'm suddenly banned, again by someone using X to hide their name.


[00:25] Takov https://twitter.com/TheStrangeLog/status...5366586370 This bug is not fixed
[00:27] |<-- Readster has left irc.synirc.net (Client exited)
[00:28] -->| Postmo1 ([email protected]) has joined #goonstation
[00:29] =-= Mode #goonstation +b Takov!*@* by X
[00:29] =-= YOU (Takov) have been booted from #goonstation by X (https://i.imgur.com/PHzHtqB.png)

For the record, I've always despised Pepe.
Any explanation for this ban? And who banned me this time?
#14
I don't know, but X is a bot not necessarily someone hiding.

I don't like it, I don't like the meme being used as a ban reason, and I'm on it.
#15
Just for the record though, I don't think your ban was ever actually lifted, it just expired or whatever nuance IRC applies on it.


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