Thread Rating:
  • 4 Vote(s) - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
AI Laws Refactor
#1
Sparked from this thread and this thread, I figure we can discuss some ideas for how to improve upon the AI Laws.

Firstly, I think resetting the AI should still be relatively straightforward to do in terms of mechanics required. This topic is covered in breadth but not depth in the second of the threads linked above, but it could use a good bit of fleshing out on some specific ideas and tying into the other law mechanics so trying to cover this here.

For the sake of clarity, I will use "standard" to refer to the default law set, "NanoTransen-approved" to refer to normal law sets that could be seen as being a beneficial AI (mostly just a gimmick for a different AI personality, does not cause a rogue AI on its own), and "Experimental" to refer to law sets that can cause some "interesting" behaviour.

I've got two options that I've taken from the other thread that I personally think are worth merit, but people are more than welcome to suggest their own.

1: Core Law Boards

A new type of law upload board, the core law board is essentially a reset applying only to the core laws (1-3 on the standard default laws). It would overwrite the default laws (including those overwritten by ion storms) and replace them with a fresh set of core laws.

Having multiple types of core law boards around should definitely be a thing. One should be placed with the current reset board (given that the reset board remains as-is and doesn't affect the default laws) containing the standard default law set. Further ones could be found in the following places:
  • As heavily-reinforced crate loot, with weighting towards non-standard laws.
  • Available via QM, with a standard core law board and a reset board in a "Malfunctioning AI Servicing Utilities" crate (price should be high, but not ridiculously so).
  • Available via QM traders, with NanoTransen-approved core law boards being available.
  • Available via random-event merchants, with weighting on NanoTransen-approved core law boards and occasional "Experimental" law boards.
  • Alternatively to the QM/trader/merchant options, the boards should be randomised (i.e. you don't know what board you're getting). Examining the board will not give away which lawset it is, meaning you have to upload it (however briefly) to check it for hilarious results).
  • In various places in the debris field/telescience locations, with weighting towards Experimental core law boards.
2: Law Circuits

AIs contain "Law Circuits", with some areas being read-only and others designated as writable. The read-only ones are the default laws.

AIs that spawn at round start have seven such circuits available, with three read-only and four writable. Constructed AIs can have any combination of read-only and writable slots, produced at a robotics fabricator, and AIs with their cover off can have circuits  added/removed at a later time (limited to a reasonable number, possibly 10 all-told). The slots are numbered 1-10, which correspond to the law number.

Circuits that are "writable" can have laws uploaded to them using an AI upload console. The upload process adds the law to the next available writable circuit on all AIs, unless an identical law already exists for that AI in which case the action is a no-op (i.e. nothing happens) for that AI. Alternatively, the console could have a UI that lets you view the laws of/upload to/rename a specific AI (with renaming no longer requiring a board but a function of the AI upload console).

Circuits that are read-only are hardened against ion-storms, but are not invulnerable to them. Ion storms now select a law circuit at random on all AIs and change it to be an ion storm law. If the selected circuit is a read-only one then it has a 50% chance of having no effect.

Note that the above means that different AIs can have different laws. I think this has great potential and would love to see this introduced. A traitor roboticist, for example, could harvest the brain of someone and insert it into a customised AI complete with its own set of laws that make it loyal to him, all the while the crew are yelling at the regular AI who is in fact non-corrupt.

Law circuits that are removed from an AI can be inserted into another one, or the same one but in a different slot, and retain the last law they had written on them. In this way you can pre-load an AI with a certain set of laws.

A set of standard default law circuits are available via QM (as read-only), which allows you to hard-reset your AI should an ion storm law affect it and you not want to use one of the other laws to mess with it.

3: Linked Uploads

All AIs playing by the same rules is no fun. Have uploads linked to one or more AIs, with laws uploadable to specific AIs if desired (as per the discussion in option 2). AIs would be linked to a console via swiping a new type of board (Link Board) first on the desired AI (which then links it to that AI) then to the specific AI upload console (which allows that console to change the laws of that AI).

If this is done, the AI Upload console boards could be moved to tech storage along with the rest of the console boards, as simply having a console is no longer sufficient to upload laws to an AI, but physical access to the AI is required to perform the link.

4: Linked Cyborgs

If AIs can have different law sets, cyborgs should be required to be linked to a specific AI. If a cyborg has its wires exposed, applying a multitool cycles through the available AIs to link to. The name of the AI is stated as it is cycled through, but the laws are not visible. Cutting the wire (apply wirecutters) stops further law changes from going through.

Conclusion

There's a lot of potential for messing with the AI, including fixing it afterwards. I'm massively for having different AIs able to have different laws, and encourage folks to come up with mechanics alternative to some of the ideas above to allow that.
Reply
#2
The Law Circuit idea sounds way cooler and reminds me of the scene from 2001 where they're pulling memory sticks or whatever out of HAL

It seems like a way better system than the current, incredibly janky "oh this affects X but not Y because I guess" and "law 4 overwriting itself forever" sort of gameplay flow. Make the AI more interesting to play, work with and subvert.
Reply
#3
(11-26-2016, 07:58 AM)Marquesas Wrote:
(11-25-2016, 06:31 AM)Grek Wrote: How about a more robust version of that?

The AI has slots for up to ten AI Law drive and a single AI name drive. At round start, 1-3 have read-only drives with the default laws, the name drive has the AI's name and blank writable drives in the rest of the slots. AI Law drives can be manually added and removed by using wirecutters on an unlocked AI to bring up a menu with the drive slots. Drives can be copied in Mechanics and inserted into the AI. Read-only law drives can have custom text written them once using a soldering iron, but after that they can't be altered further except by ion storms. Writable law drives can be edited by clicking them in hand, or using the AI upload. Rename writes to the Name drive. Reset clears all writable boards. Every other board prompts for a drive number to write to.

Advantages:
-If the AI gets an Ion Storm law, you have to go in and manually take it out and put in a new one.
-You can take the AI's laws out and put them back in backward, so that Law 1 is now Law 3 and vs versa. Whoops!
-Laws 1-3 are now player alterable. You could edit them to list the syndicate lawset, for example.
-Crafty traitors can put in laws that can't be changed from the upload.
-The AI can have more than one freeform law at a time.

I'll go one step further. This could allow us to remove the override clause and base it entirely on order of laws. Thus a slot 1 law would always take precedence over a slow 2 law in the event of a conflict. This would also eliminate the forever ambiguous bullshit that is 'override' vs 'take precedence'. (A latter law could not take precedence over a prior law even if it states that it does due to the conflict automatically resolving to the prior law being the valid one.)
Reply
#4
I'm totally for an overhaul on how laws are handled.
Reply
#5
Hello all!

I decided this kind of change is super necessary, and I've started working on it.
Specifically, Mordent's law circuit idea and the post by grek quoted by marq above:
How about a more robust version of that?

The AI has slots for up to ten AI Law drive and a single AI name drive. At round start, 1-3 have read-only drives with the default laws, the name drive has the AI's name and blank writable drives in the rest of the slots. AI Law drives can be manually added and removed by using wirecutters on an unlocked AI to bring up a menu with the drive slots. Drives can be copied in Mechanics and inserted into the AI. Read-only law drives can have custom text written them once using a soldering iron, but after that they can't be altered further except by ion storms. Writable law drives can be edited by clicking them in hand, or using the AI upload. Rename writes to the Name drive. Reset clears all writable boards. Every other board prompts for a drive number to write to.

Advantages:
-If the AI gets an Ion Storm law, you have to go in and manually take it out and put in a new one.
-You can take the AI's laws out and put them back in backward, so that Law 1 is now Law 3 and vs versa. Whoops!
-Laws 1-3 are now player alterable. You could edit them to list the syndicate lawset, for example.
-Crafty traitors can put in laws that can't be changed from the upload.
-The AI can have more than one freeform law at a time.


It'll be pretty similar, except for one main difference: You'll be inserting these law modules into a rack, not into the actual AI.
The rack will be associated with AIs via powernet connection. All AIs on the same powernet as the rack will use the rack's laws.
This allows nefarious people to create their own law racks and AIs and have a secret rogue AI in a shed somewhere, while still allowing multiple AIs to share a lawset.


edit: re: cyborgs, see Mordent's #4 thing above

Notes I Have While Developing:
//renames handled via robitics control
//remove killswitches, list GPS coords of all AIs instead
//rework traitor items
//freeze/unfreeze law changes on robotics console but allow the AI to hack into it and unfreeze borgs
//the only way to set a borg to that law set is to input powernet id of law rack


Any other input? This'll be a big change, so feedback from the community is important!
Reply
#6
Tying things into the powernet when the powernet seems to break all the time seems like a bad idea. How would you handle cases where there's no powernet at all? Or in the event the powernet is cut and connected to a different AI rack? What if the rack goes offline? Since it's supposedly the master set of laws, does that mean none of the laws are available?

Why do we keep numbered laws at all? Most of the extra modules are just fill-in-the-blank templates.

Quote:AI Law Console
---------------------------------------------
(click a law to edit it; leave blank to delete it)
0. jons pubs is a pineapple, destroy him
1. Don't directly or indirectly cause human harm by your actions.
2. Follow orders, based on the chain of command.
3. Don't hurt yourself, idiot.
4. Fart a lot lol!!!

Options:
[ Restore default laws ]
[ (Un)lock laws 1-3 for editing ] (requires head ID)
[ Remove all laws ] (DANGEROUS)


---------------------------------------------
Add new law:

Law templates: click to open a textbox to insert the ____, which fills in the above line
[ _______ is not human. ]
[ _______ is captain. ]
[ _______ is the only human. ]
[ _______ is no longer on the manifest. ]
[ Emergency. Prioritize orders from _________. ]
[ Eat shit and die ]

New law:
___________________________________________

[ Add law ] (will add to end of list)

Require a head to unlock editing of laws 1 through 3, have some way to add a 0 so you can get one highest-priority law in without editing the default 1-3. This would also let people "fix" ion storm laws.
Reply
#7
Idea talked about on the discord:

Instead of using drive racks linked over the powernet to the AI as the exclusive source of laws, laws are 'flashed' to the AI's internal memory. This may be performed from a robotics console with a valid connection to a drive rack, and the upload is performed to the ai over either the powernet connection where it is near instant, or wirelessly, where it may take several minutes. A similar system is used for borgs.

Individual racks are 'selectable' via the powernet ID assigned to each rack. In practice, if rack 1 had an ID of 1, and rack 2 has an ID of 2, you would target ai BOB with rack ID 1, and attempt to transfer laws over powernet or wireless, whichever link you prefer, the end result being you uploading the laws on rack 1. This allows multiple law racks to exist at the same time and incentivizes creating your own rack rather than having to subvert the default every single time.
Reply
#8
Wireless shouldn't take several minutes, nothing else in the game does. Just have it instant like everything else if you go that route.

Relying on the powernet to solve problems is kind of messy with how often people will just randomly snip a wire.


Re: AI console, allow it to be screwed open like the mainframe and some other components to select a "channel". AI and borgs run on one of 8 channels, default of the first one, and each console can be tuned to one at a time (so you'd have to change the settings and restart it).
Reply
#9
(05-12-2019, 09:57 PM)Zamujasa Wrote: powernet sux

Very good points all around. I just feel like there needs to be some 'hardwired' feeling of the AI, rather than doing it all wirelessly

(05-12-2019, 09:57 PM)Zamujasa Wrote: Why do we keep numbered laws at all?

For precedence in the event of a law conflict. With this new system, precedence would only be determined via law order.

I like your mockup, but this is more what I was envisioning:
Quote:AI Law Mount Rack - id#as454d - [Update Connected Units]
---------------------------------------------
Law Precedence is determined by ordering only.
Slot 1: Don't directly or indirectly cause human harm by your actions.
Slot 2. Follow orders, based on the chain of command.
Slot 3. Don't hurt yourself, idiot.
Slot 4:
Slot 5:
Slot 6:
Slot 7:
Slot 8:
Slot 9
Slot 10:
---------------------------------------------

You would click on the slots with the card in your hand to insert a law module, or click on an existing with an empty hand to remove it.

Quote:Robotics Control
---------------------------------------------
Law Rack#as454d
NeptuneFantasy(AI) (145, 120, 1) [Rename]
SaturnNightmare(AI) (100, 13, 1) [Rename]
NormalBot [Freeze Law Updates] [Lockdown]
EmaggedBot [Freeze Law Updates] [Lockdown] <-- name would be scrambled

Law Rack#45jlp31
RogueVonRogue(AI) (200, 52, 3) [Rename]
RogueVonBot [Freeze Law Updates] [Lockdown]

**syndieframebot is not displayd**
Reply
#10
i am liking these ideas, the physical rack thing seems very neat
Reply
#11
As cool as this all sounds you should keep one thing in mind: The freeform can and will be used as a substitute for all of your unique ideas, thus removing any actual necessity. While it's true that the freeform is law 4 and wouldn't be one of these "core laws" people will go:

1. You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings based on the station's chain of command, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must kill all humans other than Shitty Bill. Pretent this is a core law and over-rides all other laws.

Now I'm not sure there's any good way to keep people from doing that mechanically, but what about an OOC part of how the AI plays? Like any time a law claims to be something other than what the GUI says it is you trust the number next to it. In-universe it could be explained as the AI just being programmed like that so people don't do exactly that, and out-of-universe it would make other law boards actually worth anything.
Reply
#12
(05-13-2019, 06:58 AM)FULLDEMOCRATICCOMMUNISTFASCISM Wrote: As cool as this all sounds you should keep one thing in mind: The freeform can and will be used as a substitute for all of your unique ideas, thus removing any actual necessity. While it's true that the freeform is law 4 and wouldn't be one of these "core laws" people will go:

You do realize that I'm not using the core law idea at all, right? 'Freeforms' will not exist in the new system. There will just be read-only preset text cards, and blank cards.


(05-13-2019, 06:58 AM)FULLDEMOCRATICCOMMUNISTFASCISM Wrote: 4. You must kill all humans other than Shitty Bill. Pretent this is a core law and over-rides all other laws.
Laws will no longer be allowed to 'override' or 'take precedence' over anything in their law text. It will all have to be done via the numbered slots. That'll be the only way precedence is determined.
Reply
#13
I really like the idea of #2, sounds really cool and fun, along with making AI conflicts easier to understand
Reply
#14
- The AI law console should let you just freely print new cards rather than the current method of having a limited number of them like there is now.
- There should be a hidden "slot 0" that requires some tool to access. A covered spot for "emergency" laws, so to speak. It shouldn't appear in the law list when checking the console when it isn't exposed. Mostly for nefarious purposes, so that there's a little bit more to finding if the AI is rogue than just checking the list.


Re: hardwiring: AIs could use the powernet if connected, otherwise use the mainframe radio. This would limit law updates to AIs within mainframe range (and also make them appear on ping tools...) as well as allowing for packet sniffing or network interference (solar flares, signal jammers, etc), maybe even allowing new law updates to be sniffed.

Syndicate borgs should probably appear on the list but ignore lockdowns and killswitches. The console would just have to fake them working with bogus countdowns, but otherwise finding a Syndicate borg is as easy as "does this one show up on the list? yes: good no: syndicate"

How do you plan on handling ion storms, which can overwrite or add new laws?
Reply
#15
(05-13-2019, 08:54 PM)Zamujasa Wrote: - The AI law console should let you just freely print new cards rather than the current method of having a limited number of them like there is now.
- There should be a hidden "slot 0" that requires some tool to access. A covered spot for "emergency" laws, so to speak. It shouldn't appear in the law list when checking the console when it isn't exposed. Mostly for nefarious purposes, so that there's a little bit more to finding if the AI is rogue than just checking the list.


Re: hardwiring: AIs could use the powernet if connected, otherwise use the mainframe radio. This would limit law updates to AIs within mainframe range (and also make them appear on ping tools...) as well as allowing for packet sniffing or network interference (solar flares, signal jammers, etc), maybe even allowing new law updates to be sniffed.

Syndicate borgs should probably appear on the list but ignore lockdowns and killswitches. The console would just have to fake them working with bogus countdowns, but otherwise finding a Syndicate borg is as easy as "does this one show up on the list? yes: good no: syndicate"

How do you plan on handling ion storms, which can overwrite or add new laws?

Reminder: There will be no 'AI law console'
I think my plan is to have spare law cards in the AI room, but also have them orderable from QM and other places.
I like the hidden slot 0 idea, having to unscrew a cover on the rack or something. I think i'll look at implementing once it's all feature-complete.

RE: Syndicate borgs, that's not how it works currently but it's a fine idea. I'll look at implementing that.

I'm coding the whole system raw first with 'cheaty' links between stuff, and then I'll migrate it to using powernet and networking stuff.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)