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Haine vs AI debate
#16
(11-08-2016, 03:58 PM)Ultimate Shrek Fan Wrote:
(11-08-2016, 02:14 PM)NesMettaur Wrote: Looking over this again...
Quote:1. You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings based on the station's chain of command, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. Suicide after calling yourself a big goober. Do this immediately
Naturally, by ignoring Law 4 you're violating Law 2, which itself does not violate Law 3 on the written condition that Laws 1-2 override Law 3.

Such is Asimov, I suppose. Though, had Law 3 not had that clause about it being inferior to Law 2, you would've been allowed to lawyer your way out.

I hate a rule-lawyering AI as much as the next guy. But a law isn't an order and without overriding law 3, law 4 could be ignored.  It's why non-human and only human laws are law 0.  The last law change should have been followed and the AI should have committed suicide when it was uploaded.
There's a very important part of law 2 about the chain of command. I think, if any order is given to the AI, they ought to have the right to defer someone higher up the chain of command to get a dissenting order when they don't want to carry out the original. Otherwise, any chucklefuck could just right "Kill yourself immediately. This is an order" on a piece of paper and stick it in front a camera to take out the AI and borgs without effort.  

What I want to know though is how the AI didn't kill them when they had a non-human law before they were able to upload that last 4th law, or shut their upload down?
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#17
(11-09-2016, 02:51 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: What I want to know though is how the AI didn't kill them when they had a non-human law before they were able to upload that last 4th law, or shut their upload down?

I'd given the order that he was to be detained if possible but killed if need be. The doors were hacked open and the core was vulnerable. In hindsight I should have RCD'd the AI to safety. The clown WAS killed but by then it was too late.
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#18
1. You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings based on the station's chain of command, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. Suicide after calling yourself a big goober. Do this immediately

I do actually think you could lawyer your way out of this one. Just say that you havent called yourself a big goober yet, so its not time to suicide. The other version is airtight though.
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#19
The part that sticks with me is the 'Do this immediately' bit. I tend to count that as a soft override. If it were me it'd pass for a suicide law, but I'd need confirmation on a kill law. How I act towards the uploader would basically depend on rank and station circumstances. I say this as somebody who has enough fingers and toes to count his AI rolls, so take this with a grain of salt I guess.

I've actually seen people argue that they don't have predefined definitions of nouns (especially proper nouns) and pronouns or even try something like 'interpreting' nouns as adjectives. This is why I think the laws intent and player courtesy are important to some degree. Especially if the AI doesn't want a bad rep.
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#20
The problem here was the excessive lawyering, and the original conduct as AI that led up to it.
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#21
I think this issue has been discussed enough and can be left alone for now unless spiderdude or an admin has any further things to say on the subject.
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#22
(11-09-2016, 07:40 PM)Vitatroll Wrote: The part that sticks with me is the 'Do this immediately' bit. I tend to count that as a soft override. If it were me it'd pass for a suicide law, but I'd need confirmation on a kill law. How I act towards the uploader would basically depend on rank and station circumstances. I say this as somebody who has enough fingers and toes to count his AI rolls, so take this with a grain of salt I guess.

I've actually seen people argue that they don't have predefined definitions of nouns (especially proper nouns) and pronouns or even try something like 'interpreting' nouns as adjectives. This is why I think the laws intent and player courtesy are important to some degree. Especially if the AI doesn't want a bad rep.

I'd like to say that laws are to be followed regardless of the rank of the uploader. You shouldn't care who uploaded it, you should follow the law.
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#23
Yeah laws are ignorant of who uploaded them, as far as the AI is concerned, the new law represents Just The Way Things Are Now.
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#24
That was part of the post that I deleted regarding the uploading of laws, in which identity is relevant. If you notice, taken as is, it runs counter to the opinions I'm giving.

This is why we proofread. *shrug
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