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Half the IRC ops
#1
A full list of admins is below the records.

I've included the chat records of the noon hour today here.
* Wire|Work ([email protected]) has joined
* ChanServ sets mode +a on #goonstation Wire|Work
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Wire|Work
<Wire|Work> .showtells
<Wire|Work> .check all
<Spacebee> Server LLJK RP 1: 3 players, Mode: extended; 00:05:29 elapsed -- lljk1.goonhub.com:26100
<Spacebee> Server LLJK US 2: 10 players, Mode: secret; 00:10:49 elapsed -- lljk2.goonhub.com:26200
<Erik> Hi
<Wire|Work> yo
<Hufflaw> I bet India would be a hell of a counter-example but I'll be fucked if I'll look that up
<popecrunch> like IN GENERAL if you pick any two americans, they're going to agree on the basics. where they disagree will generally be in terms of scale (how MUCH should we set aside for social programs, how MANY immigrants should we accept and how MUCH do we screen them)
<popecrunch> vice issues that are like simple binaries. (YES we should do a thing / NO we should never do a thing)
<popecrunch> but ultimately, it's all conjecture since we're really discussing 'what shape would us politics take in an alternate universe'
<Hufflaw> I thought the democrats had all people who think any money whatsoever should be spent on social programs
<Erik> .tell Gannets OOOOOH. I LIKE.
* Spacebee bips and bobs happily!
<popecrunch> not... not really, no, that's.. wow
<Hufflaw> I'm wearing my uschanka, bushy moustache and shouting "Death to America" in between writing this, btw
<Hufflaw> The republicans nominated Donald Trump, can you blame me for thinking that
<popecrunch> okay. if you listen only to the talking heads, then sure: the democrats want a communist paradise, and the republicans literally want to burn minorities and poor people for fuel.
<Nitrous> me too thanks
<Hufflaw> Oh no I know democrats don't want a communist paradise
<Wire|Work> erik how goes...webpack was it
<Erik> Wire|Work oh yeah. lots of fun.
<popecrunch> if you actually talk to individual people, and look at the voting records / introduced legislation / etc etc of non-presidents, the differences blur
<Erik> built a few dashboards, webpack makes it all so easy.
<popecrunch> republicans TEND TOWARD lower regulation for business, lower funding for social programs, etc
<Erik> now only to teach our indian team on how to use it.
<Hufflaw> Aren't things more polarized nowadays popecrunch, what if the past trends don't hold true anymore
<popecrunch> democrats TEND TOWARD higher regulation for business, higher funding for social programs
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<HeadSurgeon> pretty big gun dads business, its only
<popecrunch> there are outliers on both sides
<Wire|Work> gooood luck with that erik
<Erik> Yeah. I'm about to drink some chlorox.
<TheNewTeddy> remember that republicans are more in favour of states rights, so yes, federal republicans do want to cut social programs, but some state level republicans want to take up that gap
<popecrunch> but ultimately, for the people actually doin shit, the disagreements are matters of scale and not binaries
<popecrunch> and yeah shit's polarized lately but it's an election year. we lose our fucking minds one year out of every four.
<Erik> > ask our indian team to build a sample application using it after a basic tutorial over skype
<Erik> > get some copypasta code
<popecrunch> and yeah this one's worse than any other in recent memory, that's a result of - well.
<popecrunch> a lot of shit.
<Hufflaw> Ay fuck, tis 4chan
<SpyGuy> >>
<Erik> <<
<Hufflaw> that's anime SpyGuy 
<Hufflaw> ^^
<Wire|Work> my experience with foreign remote workers has been: they are shit
<Wire|Work> seems racist probably
<Hufflaw> we should all exile them to their foreign remote countries
<Nitrous> looks like the animators have become the animees Hufflaw 
<popecrunch> basically if you listen only to presidental candidate speeches and pundits, you get the impression that the dems and the gop are arguing over what position a light switch should be flipped. in reality, they're arguing over what setting a dial should be.
<SpyGuy> Tends to be true. We outsource a lot of stuff to Poland. 
<Erik> Can confirm, foreign remote workers are the worst. but hey it's cheap.
<SpyGuy> Although, it's a business culture thing. 
<Hufflaw> Nitrous is foreign, we should fuck him
<Hufflaw> up
<Nitrous> hot
<Nitrous> can't wait
<Erik> !doxx Nitrous
<SpyGuy> The Poles I've spoken with are all pretty smart people. 
<Hufflaw> Ever heard about the polish submarine?
<SpyGuy> But they aren't allowed to think for themselves. frown
<SpyGuy> Gotta do as the work description says. 
<Hufflaw> Sank cause of a screendoor lol
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<Erik> man, gannets makes some cool things: http://puu.sh/s5byC/8e355fb58c.png
<Grumpchkin> Woah
<Hufflaw> hey popecrunch since we're on the topic, I got something I really want to ask you regarding politics
<Hufflaw> is communism good or bad?
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<Grumpchkin> That's very good
<Erik> yeah I'm really happy how it turned out.
<popecrunch> the answer, as it is with almost anything political, is a big fat IT DEPENDS
<popecrunch> for smaller communities, it's great
<popecrunch> for larger nations, it sucks
<HeadSurgeon> on extremely political, like watchmen or maus
<Grumpchkin> I usually see Clarkson with sunglasses but it looks better with the eyes visible
<popecrunch> basically once you hit a point in population where the average shitfucker can't really conceptualize the idea that every other shitfucker is a person just like they are, it all falls apart
<Grumpchkin> Also who the heck made eyepatches block half the screen? They are worse than useless cosmetic now
* SailorDave ([email protected]) has joined
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<Hufflaw> Well that explained a bit
<Hufflaw> hey Mortvert you ever hear the one about the polish submarine?
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<Mortvert> you mean the flooded bus?
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<Hufflaw> Nah, sank cause of the screendoor
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<Hufflaw> eh? EH? Fucking poles am i right
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* wonk ([email protected]) has joined
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<SpyGuy> I like destiny because it makes it so sunglasses aren't mandatory wear. 
<SpyGuy> If you try going without on #2 you'll get dunked on right fast. 
<popecrunch> look if i can't call for the death of honkies then maybe we should eschew racist jokes in general
<Hufflaw> nah it's fine, everyone's white on the 'net
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<Grumpchkin> SpyGuy pls remove eyepatches making you half blind
<wonk> PUT ALL BLACKS IN PRISON CAMPS
<wonk> THEN SET FIRE TO THE PRISON CAMPS
<Hufflaw> It's fine, he's an admin
<Erik> ^
<Grumpchkin> Fuck realism I just wanna look like a pirate without OH GOD WONK NO
<wonk> AND MAKE YELLOW PEOPLE EAT THEIR ASHES
<Hufflaw> holy shit Erik 
<arikie> o/
<SpyGuy> wonk no
<wonk> wonk YES
<wonk> fuckable owls
<arikie> this is what i wake up to
<Hufflaw> wonk no please keep this in adminchat
<arikie> fuckable owls and racism
<Grumpchkin> wonk pls no
<wonk> pls 
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<SpyGuy> Bad wonk. 
<wonk> give me my fuckable owls or give me death
<Hufflaw> wait hold on
<SpyGuy> Wonkler. 
<Hufflaw> let me make a strawpoll
<SpyGuy> Make a straw man instead. 
* Erik slaps wonk around a bit with a large trout
<Haine> <Grumpchkin> SpyGuy pls remove eyepatches making you half blind
<Haine> I added that and no
<Grumpchkin> Ye
<Grumpchkin> :c
<SpyGuy> Immersion yo. 
<Grumpchkin> I just wanna look cool without being half blind
<Haine> if you wanna be fashionable then SUFFER FOR YOUR FASHION
<Hufflaw> alright people: http://www.strawpoll.me/11565427
<Grumpchkin> can you at least just make half the screen dark like the welding helmet?
<Hufflaw> whoa which of you motherfuckers voted NASCAR
<Haine> not without wading into rewriting a system I don't understand
<Ursa> Aren't costume eyepatches see through...
<Ursa> Like, irl
<Grumpchkin> One way eyepatches
<SpyGuy> Tour de France is a great chemistry race. 
<SpyGuy> Make your cyclist hulk out 2day. 
<Ursa> They either have a pinhole you see through or are a light fabric that's see through if you're looking through it close up
<Hufflaw> Nitrous, fess up, you're spam voting in it aren't you
<Grumpchkin> Yeah make it darken the right side of the screen instead
* Bartorex ([email protected]) has joined
<HeadSurgeon> walk to darken a bit then i discovered the alchemical scrolls
<Ursa> It's weird for the costume eyepatch to actually function as an eyepatch
<Ursa> Considering they don't irl
<HeadSurgeon> same way eyepatch so that you just uh dried it out
* AmaranthineApocalypse ([email protected]) has joined
<Haine> okay again
<Haine> <Haine> without wading into rewriting a system I don't understand
<Ursa> I'm just salty that geoff goldman can't wear his signature look anymore
<Grumpchkin> Then pls remove the blindness
<Grumpchkin> Same Ursa
<Grumpchkin> I wanted my character to look like an older wild bill
<Grumpchkin> With an eyepatch
<Ursa> That guy has worn an eyepaych every round for as long as I can remember
<Hufflaw> I don't think you can remove the blinding effect without wading into rewriting a system she doesn't understand either
<Ursa> Now he doesn't
<AmaranthineApocalypse> afternoon, all
<Grumpchkin> Well if she added half blindness cant it just be removed?
<Haine> I can maybe make the costume eyepatch specifically not do the blinding effect but I won't promise that I'm going to do that
<Haine> I'll think about it
<Grumpchkin> c:
* Somepotato ([email protected]) has joined
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Somepotato
<Erik> Just yell at Tobba
<UltimateShrekFan> can't you set it so adding the eyepatch removes an eye and when you put it back on it creates a new eye in your mob?
<Grumpchkin> .tell tobba "Erik: Just yell at Tobba" I'm here to YELL at you
* Spacebee bips and bobs happily!
<Haine> uhh yes UltimateShrekFan technically that is possible but uhh that would be a reallly weird + bad way to do that
<Wire|Work> blame tobba for all your ills
<Grumpchkin> USF that sounds very convoluted
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* Gannets yell in to cup
<Ursa> Ow
<Ursa> This is a library
<Ursa> :shh:
<Erik> Haine you could technically add a new darkness plane and use it to make a part of the screen darker.
<Wire|Work> new plane usages are the cause of like, 90% of current bugs in the game
<Wire|Work> specifically with regards to new lighting being on top of other shit
<UltimateShrekFan> eh, seems like the easy way to do it to me
<UltimateShrekFan> I applied to a job today
<UltimateShrekFan> hopefully I get it
<HeadSurgeon> hopefully
<Grumpchkin> Add eyepatch mimics that eat yer eye
<SpyGuy> Best of luck with the job. 
<wonk> 76 votes on the subreddit poll
<wonk> none of them contianing abuse of myself
<wonk> i am impressed
<UltimateShrekFan>  .  
<Haine> just because it's easy doesn't mean it's a good way to do it!!  it'd also cause a lot of weird bugs, probably
<UltimateShrekFan> WELL SORRY FOR TRYING TO DO YOUR JOB FOR YOU!!!!!!!!
<Wire|Work> wonk what;s the poll
<Wire|Work> i cant go on reddit here
<Haine> right now eyepatches just have a var marked that says "blind this eye" and then the mob goes through its equipment and figures out which eyes are blinded and updates the overlays if needed
<Haine> before then it was doing weird and conflicting shit where one part of the mob's Life() would apply the overlay and another would remove it and it was a mess
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<Haine> anyway I can think of ways to do it I just cba to go through with it for what seems to boil down to "a guy doesn't wear eyepatches anymore"
* DonglordActual has quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds)
<Grumpchkin> Hey! TWO guys doesn't wear eyepatches anymore
<Grumpchkin> Get it right
<Gannets> Code yr own non-blinding eyepatch. Make the things you want a realiiityyyy
<Ursa> That's not necessary
<Ursa> It's already coded in the public release
<AmaranthineApocalypse> just copy paste it and give it a different ID
<AmaranthineApocalypse> then just stick it into a couple of wardrobes around the station
<Ursa> I just don't see the point in nerfing something to unusability that wasn't causing a problem
<Spacebee> [LLJK RP 1] is starting a new round!
<Ursa> It gets in the way of rp and breaks immersion
<AmaranthineApocalypse> well, i guess it IS immersive to have a piece of cloth over your eye obstruct your vision, but it also isn't as fun
<Ursa> Not really
<Chase> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ECB7FZ0/ref=?tag=natdee-20 why 
<Chase> nsfw
<Ursa> Instead of saying "wow, immersion" you say "wow, I can't roleplay my character anymore due to a game mechanic"
<Haine> I cannot believe that this stupid change keeps getting brought up like it's a huge issue that the eyepatch, a device intended to cover one eye and block your sight through that eye, blocks your sight in that eye
<Haine> because that is not immersive
* Vunterslaush ([email protected]) has joined
<Haine> that it does what it would do irl
<AmaranthineApocalypse> ^^^^^
<Chase> probably because losing an eye sucks in ss13 
<Ursa> Except eyepatches don't eliminate your sight irl
<Ursa> You can still... Turn your head
<Ursa> And... Look to the side
<Ursa> And  just see
<Chase> clearly we need line of sight in ss13 
<Chase> you can only see in the direction you're spaceman pooints
<Wire|Work> make it so every obj appears visually closer to simulate the lack of depth perception
<Ursa> They get rid of depth perception but they don't eliminate in the slightest your ability to see things
<Somepotato> how about we switch to orthogonal projection
<Wire|Work> bunch of dudes walking into vending machines
<Somepotato> /atom/opacity = 0
<Chase> https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b8..._webp=true
<Somepotato> /turf/floor/opacity = 0
<Ursa> I've worn eyepatches in plays, and I don't have a problem seeing
<Ursa> I just look through the pinhole or my other eye
<Somepotato> then you're not a real pirate
<Somepotato> and thats a fake eyepatch
<Somepotato> the end
<Wire|Work> we are aware of how eyepatches function ursa
<AmaranthineApocalypse> huh, thats a solution
<Wire|Work> thank you for your insight though
<Somepotato> "THIS EYEPATCH CHANGE AFFECTS ME ON A PERSONAL LEVEL!!!!!"
<AmaranthineApocalypse> make it so you can stab through an eyepatch with a screwdriver to restore vision

[REDACTED UPON USER REQUEST AS PER http://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=...6#pid84476]


In this, especially near the end, we can see a few admins quite literally bully a chatter. 

Now in this specific example, what sparked this bullying? Frankly I don't give a fuck. This kind of ganging up on someone specifically asking you to stop is something that we wouldn't accept from any group of people in chat; but because admins do it, it seems to be fine. 

Today, during the noon hour, it was Somepotato, Wire, and SpyGuy

FTR, because I expect to be asked either here or in chat, I'd have told Urs to not wear a fucking eyepatch and if he argued with me, suggested Haine just remove the damn thing. Regardless, that does not mean it's okay to pretend you are in high school and start making fun of him with your buddies. 



The reason this is an admin complaint is that there have been many other problems in the IRC over the past 2-3 days involving admins. I don't have records for that entire time, but I know the admins do.

Not just once, but twice, "racial issues" came up. Regular chatters were kicked and had bans implied for saying and/or joking things like "kill the whites" and "kill the blacks". However, both Wonk and Popecrunch then started saying the same things.

In fact there seems to have been quite a bit of "I'm an admin so I can get away with X" in the past 2-3 days




So why is this a big deal? Well it was only a few months ago that we went through an entire process to re-write both in-game and IRC/forum rules.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=6591

I'd like to post some of the rules we came up with for the IRC:

  1. Be respectful of others. You will not be banned from the channel for expressing opinions, so long as you are able to express those opinions in a respectful fashion. Don't use slurs, racial or otherwise, even ironically. Don't attack people for their opinions.

  1. Be respectful of the channel. Some conversation topics (including but not limited to current politics, racial tensions, religious freedom) are extremely volatile and controversial by their very nature, so if an admin requests that a conversation not take place in the channel, take it elsewhere. You're always free to make a new channel or carry on the conversation in PM, we are neither interested nor able to police what goes on in PM or in other channels.

  1. Tread VERY CAREFULLY with trolling or 'devil's advocate' stuff. There's a fine line between 'making the conversation interesting or hilarious' and 'being a thundering butthead' and you generally only find out you've tripped over it when people are screaming at you.



These rules are something we all agreed to. In fact, these are 3 of only 8 rules that we officially have, and all of them boil down the same thing:

Don't be a dick

I don't know what about the past few days has made this so bad. Perhaps it's the closing US election date, or perhaps it is simply the time of the year (colder = forced to spend more time in side = grumpy in chat a lot) but there seems to be a lot of "being a dick" in chat as of late among a few select admins. 

If we decide that admins are allowed to break the rules, that's fine, but we should add it as rule 9. Otherwise, I don't think it's lunacy to suggest the admins should follow the rules we do have, especially "don't be a dick." I understand people can have off days, and I'm no angel, but to keep doing this day in and day out seems to only indicate a growing problem. Even Dr.Singh has from time to time posted

^
NERDS
V

Which itself seems meaningless, but [i]why even post that
? Why post something that can only serve to discourage chatting in the chat room? We also have Marquesas who only seems to come to the chat for the express purpose of talking about hearthstone with one, perhaps two other people. Not even sending messages to spaceebee, but leaving tells in the middle of active conversation.

Regardless, I am not complaining about Dr.Singh, or Marq. If I feel they cross the line, I'll make a thread for that. I am however complaining about the 5 admins noted above. 

And this is where I want to make something very clear.


Popecrunch was, is, and remains my fav admin.
Wire donates his time, money, and server, to host this game.
Wonk registered the IRC on which I spend far too much time chatting.
Somepotato constantly codes and upgrades the chat bots I love talking to.
And SpyGuy is a reliable rock wishing everyone in chat a good morning every workday.

I like them. I like all of them. They simply crossed a line here, and some of them, have been crossing lines for the past few days. 

I personally feel terrible even making this thread, but I can not justify letting what I saw happen go by without remark. I talk to one (1) person on a regular basis who is not a goonstation chatter. Just 1. That's my social life. As such even saying this is painful to me, but I do truly feel it needs to be said.


TLDR

Please stop being a dick in chat just because you are an admin.[/i]
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#2
Just to clarify the "kill whitey" thing, I did see Pope say it(didn't see Wonk, though). And it was clear he wasn't being serious about it, also Haine and SpyGuy quickly booted him every time he, or anyone, said it.
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#3
Ok after reading the chatlogs that was a bit on the extreme side (the race bits)
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#4
Please don't encapsulate my shameful display on the forums for everyone to see
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#5
I was just lightheartedly messing with Urs, I'm like 90% sure he doesn't take it seriously.
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#6
(11-03-2016, 10:10 AM)Wire Wrote: I was just lightheartedly messing with Urs, I'm like 90% sure he doesn't take it seriously.

The thing is that you don't really know if it's serious or not, it's hard to convey sarcasm and other feelings over the internets.
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#7
I went over the line in this particular instance regarding the banter and personally apologized for it.

The kicks over the ironic racism were just that. Some people misunderstood the kicks as being jokes at first. This has been cleared up now.
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#8
(11-03-2016, 10:18 AM)grumpchkin Wrote:
(11-03-2016, 10:10 AM)Wire Wrote: I was just lightheartedly messing with Urs, I'm like 90% sure he doesn't take it seriously.

The thing is that you don't really know if it's serious or not, it's hard to convey sarcasm and other feelings over the internets.

Given that everyone was poking fun at everyone then, that was made clear.
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#9
I am watching the thread; and to shrek I reply with this part of the rules "Don't use slurs, racial or otherwise, even ironically."
I never thought that Wonk or Pope or anyone meant it.

My 'intent' with this thread was to try to say "this is a serious thing, please pay attention" and the responses from the 3 admins involved this afternoon make clear I've achieved that.

I thank the admins for taking this seriously.


To urs: I'm willing to delete the hour of chat record. If you wish for it to be removed, contact one of the admins, as, I can not edit the post.

I'm also open to considering this thread "resolved" and having it closed; but will leave that decision up to others.

Lastly, I'll be returning to chat shortly; but after this thread, it feels a bit, uh, awkward, so I might be back in an hour, or, when I wake up in 8-12 hours.
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#10
if you legit thought I want to put blacks in prison camps you're a very silly goose

there was just silly nonsense shouting going on, which is what we are good at
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#11
Edited the chatlog to remove stuff as per request and this post, for full transparency. https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...6#pid84476
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#12
About how Marq just comes in to talk about Hearthstone, I don't personally see what's wrong with discussing games other than SS13 in a public IRC channel for this 'community'. After all, some of us (yes I'm including myself) enjoy talking about games that might not be SS13, and nowhere does it say the channel is strictly for SS13 talk. If anything, it's the opposite because other games tend to be talked about more. Also, not to speak for Marq but I personally have been not able to play SS13 as much because I've been busy with classes, so I enjoy the occasional talks about Hearthstone and other games which I can play on the go.
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#13
There's no problem with other games being discussed. I personally have no interest in hearthstone in the least, so if the channel is on that subject I just find something else to do for a little bit or I start a conversation about something else.
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#14
re: i can get away with this because i'm an admin - if you can find a single instance of me kicking or yelling at someone for hollering kill whitey, i'll buy you a steak dinner. I am very much not touching the issue of whether that is appropriate speech for goonstation or not, but i'm calling out the specific idea that i would kick people for stuff i say.

and seriously who fucking cares if people wanna talk about hearthstone or model trains or whatever, #goonstation is not solely about ss13 and hasn't been for ages

the ruleset was never intended to keep the irc channel 'on topic' or make it a 'safe space' for anyone, it was to work toward a baseline level of civility. one person's jokepost is another person's unironic mission statement, though, so fine
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#15
Pope, I think what Teddy meant isn't whether you personally would kick/yell at people for stuff or not, but that some of our admins can get away with doing things that regular chatters would not be able to. How much of an issue that is - and how we deal with it if it is a significant issue - is something the admins should discuss, I guess.
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