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I've had tons of fun on Destiny and its a really great change of pace and I've only got like two little tweaks that I'd like to discuss:
1.An expectation for every single traitor to be a special snowflake is well not very realistic and even on RP servers sometimes you just have a sneaky guy stab you in the face, and that's okay. Gives cloning something to clone, gives you a rush of adrenaline, and overall makes the round more enjoyable for everyone. AKA don't scream about every traitor that doesn't have a 20 minute dialog with you before he kills you
2.Please don't scream at the HoP for being away from his desk when he has literally nothing to do. Give him paperwork, fine, but at the current state I'd be fine with him just being on call. If my only job was making people new ID's and they only came every 10 minutes I'd probably enjoy a couple of drinks at the bar every now and then.
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Also, I will say that people may be taking it a little too far in the opposite direction from traditional Goon logic; sure, security should be the ones actively hunting down antags, but there are some circumstances in which it's not only reasonable, but appropriate, to try dealing with antags as a non-security individual. When ALL of security has died, or the too-few security officers get overwhelmed, the rest of the ship should not give up because "it's not their place to deal with antags" and let them do what they want (which HAS happened on some rounds). There are also the situations in which every hand is expected to deal with the problem on any reasonable space vessel, such as huge infernos, blobs, massive hull breaches, and other situations. If people continue to ignore giant problems because it's "not their job", we'll keep having those problems spiral out of control. It is proper roleplay for the chef to not try solving a murder, but at the same time it's also proper roleplay for the chef to join an all-hands effort in containing the blob that's taken over a quarter of the ship.
Also, a lot of RP servers do have what's known as a "fight-or-die clause", which means that one is allowed/expected to fight if you expect that not doing so is going to leave you or others dead. For example, I watched a changeling dragging a guy off, the bartender walked up with his gun in hand, changeling spit acid at his face, bartender ducked away. Bartender watches the changeling drag the guy away (still holding his shotgun), and is back at work in the bar in about two minutes pretending it didn't happen. That's one of the two classic Goon responses (the other being flinging oneself madly at the assailant). Since we've been sorta stressing that the latter isn't always appropriate, people have been starting to default to the former. I know it's been said to not be a vigilante, but sometimes being a hero is acceptable guys...another time (during the first disaster round), a Syndie drone managed to make its way into the escape lounge. In the old Goon I know everyone would have charged it with fire extinguishers without concern for life or limb; that's sorta not okay here. But what I saw was people awkwardly milling about, dodging the drone's passes and not acknowledging it. I chose to risk my life to protect everyone else by charging it (okay, yeah, I died, but just because the medics ignored me for a full two minutes).
The proper way to handle threats in an RP-appropriate manner isn't always violence, but come on guys, sometimes it is. Anything is better than ignoring them!
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I think it would be cool if there were some more RP heavy game modes/events on destiny.
Anyone remember maintenance doggs? Admins should bring that back. Arranging a prison breakout just seems like the kind of thing that people could RP to/react to.
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It's a big deal of culture confusion.
Basically, we've all been told, "Have fun, just don't like you would on LLJK4." Most people have interpreted this as valuing their own life, unlike the usual disregard that can be found on LLJK4. What was the best way to preserve your life on LLJK 4? The best way to survive was to not give a flying shit about was going on around you and get tunnel visioned in your own work. Becoming part of the conflict puts you at risk for death and is ultimately likely to indirectly cause the deaths of others.
Side note: The changeling example is an interesting one. On most RP servers, every antag is treated as if its the first time that's ever been encountered, meaning you have to pretend you don't know it's mechanics, even if you truly do. I feel like there's some general awkwardness in that too, as people don't know how to treat changelings, since most goon changeling rounds have a sort of procedure that everyone is aware of and to some extent partakes in.
Side note, there server populations haven't really balanced out. If anything they've become more imbalanced over time. Traditionally, people always hop on the server with the highest population, because the more people there are, the more fun there generally is. A slight imbalance between two servers seems to always overtime favor the server with the highest population. I know the argument is that everything is new and will balance out, but I've never seen a willingness among the broad community to go to a server with a population less than 30.
In general, when Cogmap 2 releases this weekend, the tides will likely turn and Destiny will become near vacant. This is expected, but I'm willing to bet that the populations won't settle back down. The only people who will remain on Destiny are those that are hardcore into RP, which might be enough people to keep a small population (Destiny was designed for only 20 people at a time, apparently.), but it will probably take months to reach a reasonable balance between the two server populations.
Ultimately, I don't think I'll be playing on Destiny. There's just a feeling I get among the players there that everyone wants to be doing more than they are currently, but feel restricted by RP requirements and just don't do as much as they could.
This was meant to be short, instead I wrote an essay. That tends to happen with this game.
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Two more things, security needs more lockers, we've got more than 3 sec members, and the barman needs a kitchenware recycler.
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MamuelMamington Wrote:Two more things, security needs more lockers, we've got more than 3 sec members, and the barman needs a kitchenware recycler. Doesn't Cog2 have some kind of security weapon dispenser in the armory? Something like that could work better on for conserving space
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I think the major problem with Destiny RP is that the community (and perhaps in a lesser form: the admins) don't actually know what kind of RP we're looking for.
It's like in-between " well, we ain't heavy RP like bay, that shit just won't work" and " It's more RP than #4!" which means the goalposts are actually quite wide.
Example 1
We had a wraith round there on destiny. Nobody "knew" how to fight the wraith. There was no chaplain who could have prior knowledge.
As security, I could've asked for chemistry to start producing salt, but why would I know that salt is effective against the "spooky ghost"
So when fighting an antag that defies an RP sense such as wraiths and wizards (the latter you can at least shoot at) how do we go about this?
This also falls into other things like traitor items. Should I know what an EMAG is? What about if someone is mindslaved right in-front of me, should i know what that means?
Solution:
1. We could just go about this with everyone having the preconceived notion how to fight antagonists, but players are still restricted to job knowledge. So I would know that salt is a way to fight a wraith, but I don't know how to make salt unless a chemist saves it on the chemistry computer
2. We could have in-game knowledge. Security could start with a book of some "known" syndicate items, and the chapel could have a small library of tomes with some information on the more mythical enemies like Vampires, Wizards and Wraiths.
Example 2:
There has been cause for removing the clown and other silliness. It's off the basis that some shit doesn't work on RP rounds. Krampus 2.0 fairly certain got removed because it got run into the ground (and doesn't work on destiny because the hallways are too narrow)
But where does this stop? Do we remove farting because that doesn't make sense for people to fart on command?
Solution:
Perhaps we should, y'know, not be so triggered. This is a RP server, but several aspects of goon code will always be whacky and we should still encourage whackyness by players flinging pies, building dangerous contraptions, superfarting, etc. There will always be that guy who strips off naked and starts playing bagpipes. Shit like that should be dealt with in-game whether it be security or (less preferably) an angry mob. It's RP but we should aim to have some of #4's funny or else it'll be sterile as fuck.
As said before we're Medium RP, but that could mean alot of things, the nuances are yet to be ironed out.
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Why wouldn't you know how to make table salt in chemistry?
I figure getting bogged down by what your spaceman does and doesn't know is kind of lame, and is the bay style that we don't want. If someone asks you why you know so much about ghosts, tell them you used to be a part time ghostbuster, or intern for a fortune teller or something.
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I think if you are trying to restrict 100% on IC knowledge to make it feel more like RP, you are missing the point of it. Baystation does this and it is enforced there pretty well, but as someone who has played there before it is absolutely the most authoritarian and frustrating tub of liquid bullshit I have ever dealt with in a video game and it is absolutely not fun. Down that road lies banning antagonists for being antagonists 'wrong.'
My proposed solution:
People can know what they want, but they have to be able to RP out an answer to WHY they know that so if their behavior gets excessive an admin can tap them to make sure everything's OK. Like Dastardly said, just claim you were a ghostbuster or, and this would be less goofy, you remember being a part of a research station where a similar ghost was smashing people with crates and shit and you start going all PTSD and freaking out until someone calms you down and gains sweet, sweet ghost fighting knowledge. That sort of thing would make the game less about getting the highest kill count and more about a ghost attacking a station full of people with a mix of experience. If you don't want to know how to fight the ghost, you can also explain that you just never encountered a situation like this before. If it's clear the player is just tryharding it up, that earlier-mentioned admin can take them aside and go 'yeah no tone it back, friend'
This sort of RP shines when it is treated the way it should be: Improv. It's very much awkward improvised RP that is hilariously bad by most standards but fun in this format because it's only supposed to last an hour or two. If we start worrying too much about who is doing RP correctly, we stop having real fun with all of this.
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What Houka suggested is a grand solution, but also comes with the potential caveat of people constantly changing their character's backstories up on the fly to match whatever situation is going on. Those sorts of people should be cracked down on HARD by the admins.
The main centerpiece of this issue is that Goonstation has been all about accumulated knowledge and knowing how to do everything. Medical doctors who can set up the engine, chaplains who excel at firing a revolver, an entire crew with encyclopedic knowledge on syndicate gear, all of that is the norm for Goon play. But that just doesn't work in an RP setting, and if everyone knows how to do everything, background convenience be damned, there's going to be very little distinguishing the two playstyles.
Some people are apparently of the impression that this translates to people only being allowed to do their jobs and being banned for so much as hitting a button they aren't supposed to, which is stupid and doesn't mesh at all with the mission statement of Destiny. Any NT-hired idiot can press buttons, whack things with other things, poke alien artifacts to see what happens, and so on. But when you get an entire crew of people, from the captain to the clown, who are able to effortlessly hack airlocks, repair hull breaches, and display absolute mastery in combat, all you get is a gigantic clusterfuck.
The other issue is that of people reacting to things and not playing the game inside a vacuum of not caring about anyone else. People need to do more things like respond when spoken to, recognize that there's a headless corpse in the hallway, realize that the man standing before them has a gun and will very likely kill them if they try anything sudden, and so on. Goonstation players have been almost encouraged to be hypercompetent, constantly vigilant, almanac-esque spacemen, but all the RP server asks you to do is step back from that and exercise some discretion and, dare I say it, realism in your actions. Your spaceman is not you, your spaceman is a character, and all you need to do is play that character.
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BYOND Username: Ed Venture
Coming up with elaborate backstories just to be able to stop an antag without an admin bugging you seems incredible silly to me.
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How about some kind of ingame way to acquire knowledge your character wouldn't know?
Guide books, pamphlets, medical charts, brain implants, intelligence boosting drugs, ancient tomes, Centcom reports, VR training courses, multiple choice tests, Space Google.
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Houka Wrote:People can know what they want, but they have to be able to RP out an answer to WHY they know that so if their behavior gets excessive an admin can tap them to make sure everything's OK. 
"I can do open heart surgery because back in space nam' it's the only thing I could do to save my fellow jarheads life"
"I can do construction because my dad thought me before he was killed in a custard related accident"
"I strip off and play the sax because it's the only way I can express myself"
Ok maybe the last one I'll allow because its not knowledge based.
Houka this is like putting a square goonstation agenda into a circular shaped RP hole. It just wont fit and in the long run will get VERY tired after a while, for people playing, and for admins alike. And yet I agree with you about Bay, that shit will not work on our server, but that wasn't really what I was suggesting in the first place.
I also pretty much agree with Bane here. There's a difference in construction between just adding metal plate to a wall, or if your opening a gas canister from atmos than rewiring/reconstructing an entire room. There's also a difference between epi-penning yourself, and conducting arm replacement surgery. People should be able to do menial tasks if they want to. It's just needs to be from a believable aspect.
Ed Venture Wrote:Coming up with elaborate backstories just to be able to stop an antag without an admin bugging you seems incredible silly to me. Pretty much this. We can circumvent all of this by just having IC knowledge available.
Goon has FANTASTIC lore that's been expanded by sol and such, having more shit to read about various antagonists on an RP station is a good thing. The information that's there can be tweaked for various balancing reasons
For example a book about the wraith would recommend using salt, but would have no info about revenants. That would add to the shock and horror when a revenent rises up from a corpse.
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Sundance Wrote:
"I can do open heart surgery because back in space nam' it's the only thing I could do to save my fellow jarheads life"
"I can do construction because my dad thought me before he was killed in a custard related accident"
"I strip off and play the sax because it's the only way I can express myself" An entire station of Shitty Bill's
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Sundance mentioned Solarium in his post. What's funny is with all the amazing depth Solarium adds to the lore, this is amazing depth makes Solarium an almost anti-thesis situation on the RP. Solarium is a massive puzzel-lore complex, and the only way to even hope to do it on the non-RP server is to have a group of people, each with already extensive knowledge on Solarium, work together. There is no RP way to explain performing the entirety of an Solarium run. The only way to perform a Solarium run is to completely forsake RP and be very open about said forsaken-ment. The icing on the cake for problem-cake is that successfully performing a Solarium run has... consequences. In all, it'd likely upset a few people who are in to RP.
That's not to say you can't perform telesci on Destiny. Since Telesci is fundamentally based on randomly mashing coordinates into the computer and hoping to find something, you could explain finding most Z-levels like that.
Opening a random telesci z-level and RPing the exploration into whatever hellscape awaits? Sounds pretty fun! And actually able to be done in a round.
Performing a Solarium run? Not a chance in hell without completely disregarding RP.
It's strange, considering how much context Solarium gives to Goonstation's SS13 world, yet also how little it would actually influence actions on a RP server. Now if someone takes this a challenge to perform a Solarium within the bounds of RP on Destiny, go right ahead. I've already mentioned why it'd be hard as hell to do, which is also why it could be amazing if someone actually pulled it off.
PS. Looking back at this, this probably is why no other server, with the vast majority of them being RP, ever developed telescience as extensive as Goon's.
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